Town Of Charlton: Planning Board Meeting Minutes August 29,2005

COMPREHENSIVE PLANNING

STEERING COMMITTEE

AUGUST 29, 2005

Present: Rick Smith, Jenna Smith, Dave Wood, Al LaRue, Gary Vanderhorst, Dawn Szurek, Dave Adams, Sally Ellms, Steve Caine, Dean Durst, Christy Schrader, Maria McCulloch, Jim Leupold, Lynda Battenhausen, Midge Dube, Marv Schorr, Dot Mitchell, Guy Mitchell.

Steve announced to the group that Deborah Herrin resigned from the committee.

Steve handed out a statement that he read to the committee. The statement was Steve’s view on what he feels were personal attacks on another member and the consultant over the past several months. His statement listed what he wanted to use as policy for the future conduct of the committee. (See attached statement). After reading his statement, Steve asked for a motion to accept the policy and for discussion of same. Sally Ellms made the motion to accept the policy and Jim Leupold made the second. Sally Ellms began the discussion by saying the statement was succinct and it would be wonderful if the committee could follow Steve’s outline. Maria McCulloch agreed with the policy and to following the methods suggested if inappropriate conduct is made known. Al LaRue said he agrees with some of what was said, but thinks that if someone has something to say, they should be able to say it without being removed from the committee. Steve interjected and said this policy would not stop anyone from saying what they wanted to say, but would stop any personal attacks on others. Guy Mitchell stated that he has not seen any personal attacks on others. He has heard heated disagreements but feels that is part of the process. He doesn’t believe this policy is necessary. He believes this policy, if adopted, would muzzle people. Guy stated he doesn’t want to get into censoring people’s beliefs. Midge Dube said the group has to be careful with how they interpret someone’s method of speaking. Some people are rough around the edges and may not express themselves as smoothly as others, but that shouldn’t be misinterpreted. Midge also said she hasn’t seen any personal attacks at the meetings she’s attended, but that she has seen people who didn’t express themselves well and have talked longer than was necessary. She doesn’t believe the committee should judge anyone because they have a different personality and express themselves in a different way than others. Dave Wood stated that he wondered if he was one of the people who has caused discourse. He said he believes everyone interprets things differently and he also, has not noticed uncivil discourse in the meetings. Jim Leupold agrees with the policy and has no problems with what Steve wrote. He agreed that people have different interpretations with what has happened in the past, but believes from this point forward the committee should try to move ahead and work on what they are supposed to be accomplishing. Rick Smith thinks the committee works well together even though there have been times when some discussions have gone in circles. He believes most of the problems have stemmed from the emails that have been sent. Marv said his first reaction to Steve’s statement was that it was totally inappropriate. He hasn’t seen examples of what Steve is referring to doesn’t feel the committee should be wasting time even discussing this. He said the policy Steve is proposing is a matter of civility and that something like that doesn’t need to be voted on. He stated that the implication coming on the heels of what had previously been written, and this proposed policy, is inappropriate. Dave Adams said he couldn’t agree with it the way it is written because he doesn’t have faith in the credibility of the Chairman to make an unbiased decision. He does not agree. Dean Durst said he got out of elementary school 41 years ago, and he believes this policy is written with a school mentality. He hasn’t seen any personal attacks and believes it was an interpretation issue on Steve’s part. He does not agree with the proposed policy. Jenna Smith stated that she won’t say the policy isn’t necessary, but feels it shouldn’t be necessary. She said everyone is on this committee for the same reason and people have different ways of communicating. On a committee of this size, some comments that are unproductive have to be ignored and you have to move on. Dawn Szurek stated that everyone on the committee took an oath to deliver this document to the town. If people disagree, it’s healthy to debate the issues. She didn’t feel the level of threats or attacks that Steve is referring to. The only issue she had was if one person monopolized the conversation and no one else got to speak. She doesn’t feel it’s fair to remove someone from the committee over what one person’s perception is of what that person said. Christy Schrader said “ditto” to others comments at her end of the table and does not agree with the policy. Gary Vanderhorst said we’re all adults and need to handle ourselves as same. He doesn’t believe we need another policy and the committee should get on with the job at hand. Lynda Battenhausen agreed with most everyone. She liked a lot of what the policy said, but doesn’t believe it needs to be taken to this step. She said the group can decide if something isn’t working right. Steve said he has seen things on the committee that he has never seen before. He has seen two people being the target of these attacks and has a hard time understanding how the group can’t see this. Steve said he is affected by this and knows others are as well. He stated he has tried talking to the individual and was unsuccessful. The sub-committee chairs spoke to this individual and at the next meeting Nan was attacked. He is not trying to stifle ideas or people expressing their passion for an issue, but he takes civil conduct seriously. Steve said he has tried at every level, and has now tried to get the group support to accept this policy. Marv said he thinks there is a difference between attacking someone and pointing out where they are wrong. It’s especially important when the consultant is wrong about something, and it is necessary to point that out. Marv hasn’t seen the personal attacks that Steve is referring to. Steve asked for a vote on accepting or rejecting the policy he has proposed. The vote was as follows:

Yea Nay Abstained

Steve Caine Al LaRue Dave Wood

Sally Ellms Guy Mitchell

Maria McCulloch Rick Smith

Midge Dube Marv Schorr

Jim Leupold Dave Adams

Lynda Battenhausen Dean Durst

Jenna Smith

Dawn Szurek

Christy Schrader

Gary Vanderhorst

The vote was 6 in favor; 10 opposed; one abstention.

At this point, Steve Caine said he was going to resign as Chairman. He said he cannot work in an environment where this occurs. He has given this a lot of thought and believes there is too much passivity and acceptance of this type of behavior and must remove himself from the committee.

Dean Durst said that the common perception of most of the committee members was that no one observed a personal attack. Rick Smith stated that no one has demonstrated inappropriate behavior at these meetings. Steve said his personal integrity has been challenged. Rick said that his integrity hasn’t been challenged at the meetings. He said the trouble seems to be outside of the meetings. Steve said it shouldn’t happen anywhere. He stated that Deborah Herrin and Nan Stolzenburg both feel that they’ve been downgraded at meetings. Dave Adams spoke up and said that since he is the person Steve is referring to; he needed to say a few things. He said the only time he responded negatively was after he was accused of not doing something, or doing something that he didn’t do; or after there was a person who was supposed to be working in a group, go out on their own and put out a report, which was erroneous, and then have the Chairman follow up with a message congratulating her with no discussion with Dave or other members who were present at the meeting to see if what was said was accurate. Dave said he responded at the time the best that he could. He said he also made a demand of the Chairman to take out inappropriate words that he had put in the minutes of the meeting, after the fact, which was endorsed by the rest of the committee as being inappropriate. Dave said maybe he shouldn’t have “demanded”, but felt it was an improper action. Dave said he has only responded when he felt he had first been attacked. He said there are many people in the room who know the kind of person Dave is, and he is not the person that the Chairman has made him out to be. He stated that Steve has not wanted him on the committee since the beginning when he, Dave, objected to the status of the organization of the committee as members and alternates, when alternates were expected to be as knowledgeable as the committee members but not allowed to vote. He said he insisted that should be changed and the Town Board agreed with Dave. He said he believes he and Steve got off on the wrong foot right from the beginning. Gary said he was upset because he thought the results of the plan was suppose to stay within the group, and he got an email, as an alternate of the Planning Board, that was sent out to all of the Planning Board members. Steve said a subsequent message was sent to the Planning Board stating that the information emailed to them was material that was preliminary and it could be changed completely by the committee. Steve said with the fact that the committee can’t support a policy that talks about decent behavior, and with his value structure, he regrets he can’t continue on the committee. Midge Dube said she realizes Steve has put in more time than the rest of the committee on this project and she hates to see him walk away because of disputes and disagreements. She asked Steve to take some time and think about the work that the committee has done so far and reconsider his decision to leave. She stated that it’s not that the committee couldn’t support his policy and didn’t think it was a good idea, but that they didn’t believe it was necessary to put a policy in place. Jim Leupold said that Steve tried to resolve the issue by proposing this policy and he would hate to see it fail after the amount of time given by everyone. He asked if anyone who voted against the policy had suggestions to arrive at a point that would make Steve happy with what he is trying to achieve, and what it is about Steve’s policy that people feel wasn’t going to achieve that. Rick asked if someone feels attacked or threatened, why they can’t bring it up to the committee instead of voting on a policy to handle the situation. Marv said he heard from several people that they didn’t hear examples of personal attacks. Marv said that shows him there is a perception difference in people’s eyes as to what are disagreements and to what are personal attacks. Dave said he sent an email to Steve expressing the thought that if they talked about their differences before they started sending emails, their problems would disappear. Marv asked Steve to address Jim’s question. Steve commented that this has nothing to do with pleasing him. This is a policy that will allow everyone to express themselves without being attacked. Marv said the policy doesn’t stand by itself because others don’t see what Steve sees. Steve said he sees relationships on a committee different than a lot of others on this committee. He thinks people have become desensitized to civil dialogue. He said he will do his best to give the new Chairman all the information he has. Jenna said she saw Deborah Herrin today. Jenna feels badly that Deborah feels she can’t be a part of the committee anymore. On the same token, Jenna said we’ve got 4½ pages of strategies that everyone supports, and that’s a positive incentive to have everyone keep going. Steve stated Nan has never been discredited like she has been in this situation. He said you can discredit someone with tone and innuendo as well as verbally. She has asked Steve if she’s lost her credibility with the committee and feels she has. Dean asked how she’s been discredited. Steve said she feels the tone of some of the meetings and how she’s been talked to and the things that have been questioned have led her to believe she lacks credibility. Jim asked what is next and how can this situation be salvaged. Dave Adams said that when we meet next week we can decide how to proceed and how to select a new Chairman. Guy Mitchell reminded the group that the Town Board appoints the Chairman. We, as a group, can give them a recommendation, but cannot appoint. Marv said he believes the committee can move ahead, but would like Steve to stay. Rick Smith said he doesn’t think anyone realized that Steve would resign. Steve said he tried to explain in his email to everyone that he has to live within the parameters he believes in. Dawn said she thinks there are things in the policy that no one objects to, but what she can’t agree with are the bullets; who would decide who gets removed? That’s why she can’t agree with the policy. Steve said it shouldn’t be a problem to everyone on the committee if someone is being attacked. Lynda said that if someone is being attacked, it should be obvious to everyone in the group, not just one or two people. Steve said being attacked is not when someone has different ideas or when a person is passionate about their beliefs, but when a person’s character or integrity is in question through innuendos or tone.

Steve left the meeting and it was decided that the rest of the committee would continue to meet and discuss the situation.

The minutes of the August 2^nd meeting were approved as amended. The next meeting will be at 7:00 on October 3, 2005 at the Town Hall.

Meeting adjourned at 8:05 P.M.


COMPREHENSIVE PLANNING STEERING COMMITTEE AUGUST 29, 2005 Present: Rick Smith, Jenna Smith, Dave Wood, Al LaRue, Gary Vanderhorst, Dawn Szurek, Dave Adams, Sally Ellms, Steve Caine, Dean Durst, Christy Schrader, Maria McCulloch, Jim Leupold, Lynda Battenhausen, Midge Dube, Marv Schorr, Dot Mitchell, Guy Mitchell. Steve announced to the group that Deborah Herrin resigned from the committee. Steve handed out a statement that he read to the committee. The statement was Steve’s view on what he feels were personal attacks on another member and the consultant over the past several months. His statement listed what he wanted to use as policy for the future conduct of the committee. (See attached statement). After reading his statement, Steve asked for a motion to accept the policy and for discussion of same. Sally Ellms made the motion to accept the policy and Jim Leupold made the second. Sally Ellms began the discussion by saying the statement was succinct and it would be wonderful if the committee could follow Steve’s outline. Maria McCulloch agreed with the policy and to following the methods suggested if inappropriate conduct is made known. Al LaRue said he agrees with some of what was said, but thinks that if someone has something to say, they should be able to say it without being removed from the committee. Steve interjected and said this policy would not stop anyone from saying what they wanted to say, but would stop any personal attacks on others. Guy Mitchell stated that he has not seen any personal attacks on others. He has heard heated disagreements but feels that is part of the process. He doesn’t believe this policy is necessary. He believes this policy, if adopted, would muzzle people. Guy stated he doesn’t want to get into censoring people’s beliefs. Midge Dube said the group has to be careful with how they interpret someone’s method of speaking. Some people are rough around the edges and may not express themselves as smoothly as others, but that shouldn’t be misinterpreted. Midge also said she hasn’t seen any personal attacks at the meetings she’s attended, but that she has seen people who didn’t express themselves well and have talked longer than was necessary. She doesn’t believe the committee should judge anyone because they have a different personality and express themselves in a different way than others. Dave Wood stated that he wondered if he was one of the people who has caused discourse. He said he believes everyone interprets things differently and he also, has not noticed uncivil discourse in the meetings. Jim Leupold agrees with the policy and has no problems with what Steve wrote. He agreed that people have different interpretations with what has happened in the past, but believes from this point forward the committee should try to move ahead and work on what they are supposed to be accomplishing. Rick Smith thinks the committee works well together even though there have been times when some discussions have gone in circles. He believes most of the problems have stemmed from the emails that have been sent. Marv said his first reaction to Steve’s statement was that it was totally inappropriate. He hasn’t seen examples of what Steve is referring to doesn’t feel the committee should be wasting time even discussing this. He said the policy Steve is proposing is a matter of civility and that something like that doesn’t need to be voted on. He stated that the implication coming on the heels of what had previously been written, and this proposed policy, is inappropriate. Dave Adams said he couldn’t agree with it the way it is written because he doesn’t have faith in the credibility of the Chairman to make an unbiased decision. He does not agree. Dean Durst said he got out of elementary school 41 years ago, and he believes this policy is written with a school mentality. He hasn’t seen any personal attacks and believes it was an interpretation issue on Steve’s part. He does not agree with the proposed policy. Jenna Smith stated that she won’t say the policy isn’t necessary, but feels it shouldn’t be necessary. She said everyone is on this committee for the same reason and people have different ways of communicating. On a committee of this size, some comments that are unproductive have to be ignored and you have to move on. Dawn Szurek stated that everyone on the committee took an oath to deliver this document to the town. If people disagree, it’s healthy to debate the issues. She didn’t feel the level of threats or attacks that Steve is referring to. The only issue she had was if one person monopolized the conversation and no one else got to speak. She doesn’t feel it’s fair to remove someone from the committee over what one person’s perception is of what that person said. Christy Schrader said “ditto” to others comments at her end of the table and does not agree with the policy. Gary Vanderhorst said we’re all adults and need to handle ourselves as same. He doesn’t believe we need another policy and the committee should get on with the job at hand. Lynda Battenhausen agreed with most everyone. She liked a lot of what the policy said, but doesn’t believe it needs to be taken to this step. She said the group can decide if something isn’t working right. Steve said he has seen things on the committee that he has never seen before. He has seen two people being the target of these attacks and has a hard time understanding how the group can’t see this. Steve said he is affected by this and knows others are as well. He stated he has tried talking to the individual and was unsuccessful. The sub-committee chairs spoke to this individual and at the next meeting Nan was attacked. He is not trying to stifle ideas or people expressing their passion for an issue, but he takes civil conduct seriously. Steve said he has tried at every level, and has now tried to get the group support to accept this policy. Marv said he thinks there is a difference between attacking someone and pointing out where they are wrong. It’s especially important when the consultant is wrong about something, and it is necessary to point that out. Marv hasn’t seen the personal attacks that Steve is referring to. Steve asked for a vote on accepting or rejecting the policy he has proposed. The vote was as follows: Yea Nay Abstained Steve Caine Al LaRue Dave Wood Sally Ellms Guy Mitchell Maria McCulloch Rick Smith Midge Dube Marv Schorr Jim Leupold Dave Adams Lynda Battenhausen Dean Durst Jenna Smith Dawn Szurek Christy Schrader Gary Vanderhorst The vote was 6 in favor; 10 opposed; one abstention. At this point, Steve Caine said he was going to resign as Chairman. He said he cannot work in an environment where this occurs. He has given this a lot of thought and believes there is too much passivity and acceptance of this type of behavior and must remove himself from the committee. Dean Durst said that the common perception of most of the committee members was that no one observed a personal attack. Rick Smith stated that no one has demonstrated inappropriate behavior at these meetings. Steve said his personal integrity has been challenged. Rick said that his integrity hasn’t been challenged at the meetings. He said the trouble seems to be outside of the meetings. Steve said it shouldn’t happen anywhere. He stated that Deborah Herrin and Nan Stolzenburg both feel that they’ve been downgraded at meetings. Dave Adams spoke up and said that since he is the person Steve is referring to; he needed to say a few things. He said the only time he responded negatively was after he was accused of not doing something, or doing something that he didn’t do; or after there was a person who was supposed to be working in a group, go out on their own and put out a report, which was erroneous, and then have the Chairman follow up with a message congratulating her with no discussion with Dave or other members who were present at the meeting to see if what was said was accurate. Dave said he responded at the time the best that he could. He said he also made a demand of the Chairman to take out inappropriate words that he had put in the minutes of the meeting, after the fact, which was endorsed by the rest of the committee as being inappropriate. Dave said maybe he shouldn’t have “demanded”, but felt it was an improper action. Dave said he has only responded when he felt he had first been attacked. He said there are many people in the room who know the kind of person Dave is, and he is not the person that the Chairman has made him out to be. He stated that Steve has not wanted him on the committee since the beginning when he, Dave, objected to the status of the organization of the committee as members and alternates, when alternates were expected to be as knowledgeable as the committee members but not allowed to vote. He said he insisted that should be changed and the Town Board agreed with Dave. He said he believes he and Steve got off on the wrong foot right from the beginning. Gary said he was upset because he thought the results of the plan was suppose to stay within the group, and he got an email, as an alternate of the Planning Board, that was sent out to all of the Planning Board members. Steve said a subsequent message was sent to the Planning Board stating that the information emailed to them was material that was preliminary and it could be changed completely by the committee. Steve said with the fact that the committee can’t support a policy that talks about decent behavior, and with his value structure, he regrets he can’t continue on the committee. Midge Dube said she realizes Steve has put in more time than the rest of the committee on this project and she hates to see him walk away because of disputes and disagreements. She asked Steve to take some time and think about the work that the committee has done so far and reconsider his decision to leave. She stated that it’s not that the committee couldn’t support his policy and didn’t think it was a good idea, but that they didn’t believe it was necessary to put a policy in place. Jim Leupold said that Steve tried to resolve the issue by proposing this policy and he would hate to see it fail after the amount of time given by everyone. He asked if anyone who voted against the policy had suggestions to arrive at a point that would make Steve happy with what he is trying to achieve, and what it is about Steve’s policy that people feel wasn’t going to achieve that. Rick asked if someone feels attacked or threatened, why they can’t bring it up to the committee instead of voting on a policy to handle the situation. Marv said he heard from several people that they didn’t hear examples of personal attacks. Marv said that shows him there is a perception difference in people’s eyes as to what are disagreements and to what are personal attacks. Dave said he sent an email to Steve expressing the thought that if they talked about their differences before they started sending emails, their problems would disappear. Marv asked Steve to address Jim’s question. Steve commented that this has nothing to do with pleasing him. This is a policy that will allow everyone to express themselves without being attacked. Marv said the policy doesn’t stand by itself because others don’t see what Steve sees. Steve said he sees relationships on a committee different than a lot of others on this committee. He thinks people have become desensitized to civil dialogue. He said he will do his best to give the new Chairman all the information he has. Jenna said she saw Deborah Herrin today. Jenna feels badly that Deborah feels she can’t be a part of the committee anymore. On the same token, Jenna said we’ve got 4½ pages of strategies that everyone supports, and that’s a positive incentive to have everyone keep going. Steve stated Nan has never been discredited like she has been in this situation. He said you can discredit someone with tone and innuendo as well as verbally. She has asked Steve if she’s lost her credibility with the committee and feels she has. Dean asked how she’s been discredited. Steve said she feels the tone of some of the meetings and how she’s been talked to and the things that have been questioned have led her to believe she lacks credibility. Jim asked what is next and how can this situation be salvaged. Dave Adams said that when we meet next week we can decide how to proceed and how to select a new Chairman. Guy Mitchell reminded the group that the Town Board appoints the Chairman. We, as a group, can give them a recommendation, but cannot appoint. Marv said he believes the committee can move ahead, but would like Steve to stay. Rick Smith said he doesn’t think anyone realized that Steve would resign. Steve said he tried to explain in his email to everyone that he has to live within the parameters he believes in. Dawn said she thinks there are things in the policy that no one objects to, but what she can’t agree with are the bullets; who would decide who gets removed? That’s why she can’t agree with the policy. Steve said it shouldn’t be a problem to everyone on the committee if someone is being attacked. Lynda said that if someone is being attacked, it should be obvious to everyone in the group, not just one or two people. Steve said being attacked is not when someone has different ideas or when a person is passionate about their beliefs, but when a person’s character or integrity is in question through innuendos or tone. Steve left the meeting and it was decided that the rest of the committee would continue to meet and discuss the situation. The minutes of the August 2^nd meeting were approved as amended. The next meeting will be at 7:00 on October 3, 2005 at the Town Hall. Meeting adjourned at 8:05 P.M.
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