Agenda Meeting Minutes

April 26, 2004

The meeting began at 7:30 P.M.

Those present: Fred, Alan, Dot and Sandy. Bob was not present.

Fred – We are waiving participation from the floor for one item only in that Deborah and John Herrin have been granted permission to do a presentation regarding their property and an adjoining property. Town counsel will be here by 7:45. We will wait until he arrives.

There will be a public hearing at 7:15 P.M. on May 10 for the updating of the MS4 Annual Report.

Alan – Town Board members have copies of the Annual Report. They are available in the Town Clerk’s office for review. It outlines what the program is and is going to be in future years. It is a gradual program that started last year and every year you have to lay out what you have done for your Storm Water Management Program and what you plan on doing for the next year. The State requires a public hearing annually. We have a filing date of June 1 for the permits. Our consultant, EDP, says were are right on track. Ron and Alan have been attending workshops at the county.

Supervisor’s Report and Announcements:

Three sets of minutes will be approved at the Town Board Meeting. They will be the Town Board Minutes of April 12, the Special Meeting Minutes of April 15 and the tonight’s Agenda Minutes.

Motion made by Councilman Grattidge, seconded by Councilman Verola, A Motion authorizing the Town Clerk to develop an Abstract of Claims to be given to the bookkeeper, be approved:

Approved: Councilman Grattidge Yes

Councilman Lippiello Absent

Councilman Mitchell Yes

Councilman Verola Yes

Supervisor Acunto Yes

Dot – A bill was pulled from last month’s abstract regarding books that were printed by LandWorks. She has a letter from Doris and an estimate from Mail and More for copies of the same work that was done by LandWorks for the Proposed Main Street Improvement Plan for the Historic District. Five books would cost $55.00. Doris will call LandWorks Tuesday morning to negotiate the price to us. Dot would like us to deal with this now because the printing was done on February 24. It was decided to place it on the abstract pending the adjusted bill from LandWorks.

Resolutions:

Motion made by Councilman Grattidge, seconded by Councilman Verola that

Resolution #69, A RESOLUTION AUTHORIZING THE TOWN JUSTICES TO SUBMIT A GRANT APPLICATION TO NEW YORK STATE DEPARTMENT

OF JUSTICE CRIMINAL SERVICES, be approved:

Approved: Councilman Grattidge Yes

Councilman Lippiello Absent

Councilman Mitchell Yes

Councilman Verola Yes

Supervisor Acunto Yes

Motion made by Councilman Grattidge, seconded by Councilman Verola that

Resolution #70, A RESOLUTION TO TRANSFER FUNDS, be approved:

Fred – This is to cover the cost of “dunks”. We didn’t budget any money because at the time we put the budget together we didn’t know how many we were going to get or what the cost and shipping would be. I was also going to try to merge with another town to save shipping costs. Other towns had already purchased them. We need a transfer of $300.00 from contingency to environmental control.

Approved: Councilman Grattidge Yes

Councilman Lippiello Absent

Councilman Mitchell Yes

Councilman Verola Yes

Supervisor Acunto Yes

The Board decided to have a workshop meeting on the Policy Manual.

Estella has made a request that the Board look at the gazebo in Gideon Hawley for painting. Ron feels the Highway Department doesn’t have the time. She was hoping it could be done before the Memorial Day Ceremony. Alan will stop and look at it and meet with Ron.

Bob VanVranken has asked to have an executive session following this meeting on a litigation matter. Fred has a personnel matter that needs to be discussed.

Rick Reynolds will be the Grand Marshall of the Founder’s Day Parade. Fred will prepare a proclamation or resolution.

The Garden Club has asked if we would purchase the flowers around the parks and the town hall. They are estimating it would be around $200.00. The Board agreed.

Fred received an email from Dave LaFountain and sent it to Sandy in regard to a request for printer for the zoning office for photographs. Dave said they have a digital camera but they don’t have any way of printing color quality photos. Dave would also like a fax machine for his home. He does not have access to the fax machine at the Town Hall. He would like one piece of equipment that is a printer and fax machine combination. Fred said the assessors are doing photos in black and white and the quality is OK. Dave stated that the printer in the zoning office won’t do pictures in black and white. Sandy will get prices and talk with Craig. Alan stated that we purchased a basic fax machine for Ray for the Planning Board. Something like that could be used at his house and if we wanted a printer for here, that would be a separate unit. Dave stated that they would use color photos for prosecution, if need be.

The Flag Day Parade will be June 10 at 7:00 P.M. in Burnt Hills.

The Memorial Day Ceremony will be at Gideon Hawley at 2:00 P.M. on Memorial Day. People may bring items for “Operation Adopt a Soldier” for troops in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The Department of Motor Vehicle is extending it hours to one evening a week. This will include the office in Ballston, Clifton Park and Saratoga.

Communications:

We received a letter from a resident on upper Division Street regarding the road conditions.

We received a letter from the Charlton Heritage Run Committee asking for help from the constables with traffic control.

We received an email regarding the barking dog complaint on Division Street. Fred spoke with Lee and Lee has spoken with counsel and they are taking the necessary steps to move forward.

We received a letter from a resident on Crooked Street with three issues. One was the NIMO gas line project. One is related to the project in regard to his assessment abutting that project and also some water district concerns. These all fall under Councilman Lippiello.

Fred expressed our condolences to Marge Dennis’ family on the loss of her father last week.

The next Agenda Meeting will be Tuesday, June 1 at 7:30 P.M.

Councilman Reports:

Alan – Has two proposals for construction and painting of a 9 X 12 office including electrical work. It will be a modular unit and could be removed later on if we want to. It would be screwed to the floor and attached to the ceiling. It would have sheet rock walls and insulated for soundproofing.

Schmidt and Schmidt --- $3,000.00

Peter Schrader --- $4,841.00

Motion made by Councilman Verola, seconded by Councilman Mitchell that

Resolution #71, A RESOLUTION TO BUILD A 9 x 12 OFFICE AT THE TOWN HALL AT A COST NOT TO EXCEED $3,000.00, be approved:

Approved: Councilman Grattidge Yes

Councilman Lippiello Absent

Councilman Mitchell Yes

Councilman Verola Yes

Supervisor Acunto Yes

Ron will have a report on the condition of Featherbed Lane at the Town Board Meeting.

Dot – The Historic District Commission will be meeting on Wednesday, May 12 at

7:30 P.M. at the Town Hall.

Sandy – Asked for permission for herself and Dot to attend a conference sponsored by the NYS Comptroller’s Office on financial matters. It is May 12-14. The cost is $175.00 each. Sandy will get information on this to the Town Board.

Motion made by Supervisor Acunto, seconded by Councilman Grattidge, A Motion authorizing Sandy Verola and Dot Mitchell to attend a workshop in Saratoga on

May 12-14, be approved:

Approved: Councilman Grattidge Yes

Councilman Lippiello Absent

Councilman Mitchell Yes

Councilman Verola Yes

Supervisor Acunto Yes

Laura asked if building an office in the meeting room would leave the room large enough to hold court and to have our Town Board Meetings. She wanted to know if there were any legal requirements. Fred said there weren’t.

At this time a presentation was given by John Herrin of Maple Avenue.

John gave the Board a chart, some maps and pictures of the Corbin property on Maple Avenue.

John – I wanted to ask you help in addressing what could be a water source issue that could impact us as well as some of our neighbors. The pond that we are concerned about is in the first picture. It is not visible from any roads. It is not visible from any homes. You really have to seek it out if you want to take a look at it to see what’s going on. I put together a chart to try and show you how large the pond is. My calculations show it to be a little over 2 ½ acres. It is a substantial size. If you go back to some of the maps one is before 1980. It is one of the limited number of ponds that showed up on the town map so it appears to have been around for quite a while. The other thing that the chart shows is that the pond covers multiple properties. A large portion of the pond is on the Corbin property. It comes across our property. At one point it goes over to Mike Szerszanowicz’s property.

My best guess is that the pond has lost about 9” recently. That 9” loss on 2 ½ acres works out to a little over ½ million gallons of water that is not being held there that was in the past. I included a picture also of the water showing where I believe the old high water mark was. I think that shows up really clearly. It explains part of my concern. I don’t know what the impact is of dropping ½ million gallons of water out of the local area but I have to believe at that level it could probably be significant. I’ve heard that some of the people upstream from this are having more problems getting water than they have in the past. I have heard that some people downstream from us have had more flooding issues than they had in the past. I don’t know if it is related to any changes in the water in that pond but I am concerned that it might be.

Some of the other issues associated with the pond is that it is included in the Alplauskill Drainage Basin. I concerned that there may be impacts on the aquifer recharge and discharge which I understand is part of the role of the wetlands. One of the other maps that I have included there is a wetlands map that I received from Mark (could not understand) at the DEC showing that this does fall into a wetlands area.

The other issue --- I have included a photograph showing that this pond is maintained by a dam. What would happen if the dam would fail? Basically, my questions are, and I am not an Environmental Engineer, I don’t really know what the impact of this waterway is but I think it would be a shame to loose this water resource if it were lost to the failure of the dam and I am concerned about what would happen with the reduction of water. My specific request of the Town is to ask that you would help us assess if there are any issues associated with the significant reductions of the water level of the pond and any needs to maintain the dam.

Alan – From anecdotal information, did you feel when the pond was built?

John – I heard that it was more than 50 years ago.

Fred – Built by the Corbins or built by some environmental agency?

John – As I understood it, it was built by the Corbins. I believe Jack Adams has been involved in maintaining it in the past. I know that the previous owners of our house has some involvement in helping maintain the water level with the spillway.

Bob VanVranken (Town Counsel) – What is the source of the water in it?

John – It is creek fed.

Mike Szerszanowicz - Maple Avenue – It is basically run off. You get the water after it snows or a heavy rain.

Bob VanVranken – Do I understand correctly that it flows from your property through the Corbins and in that direction? You are higher than the Corbins?

Mike – I am higher than they are. It flows from Route 67 south.

Alan – So it is catching the water from Jockey Street and Maple Avenue.

Mike – From 67 all the way down through.

Deborah Herrin – There is also, under the road, between our house and the Corbin’s farmhouse, water and a stream that goes under Maple Avenue that flows into it as well. It comes down behind Maple Avenue, between Maple Avenue and Peaceable Street, and it also (could not understand) and it goes into that same wetlands as that pond.

Ron – I don’t believe that is considered wetlands.

Alan – Generally, run-off ponds are just holding areas for water. They don’t increase or decrease the amount of water present in the area. You are digging a hole out. The water is captured there and when it raises up to a certain level it keeps flowing out.

Ron – In the past, the water had gotten so high it went right over the dam and started washing it out. Jack Adams had Duncan or Crawford come in and open up that spillway to relieve the pressure on the dam to keep it from eroding it when it went over. Then the water level dropped too low and the muskrats came in. Now that is all honeycombed so the water is dropping more. The dam is starting to erode pretty bad. The only thing it is doing is reverting back to it’s natural state. Once the dam is washed out, you are going to have an 8’ – 10’ dry creek bed down through there and a lot of wet bogs like my end which is almost the same amount as Corbin owns. Whatever you want to do with the dam is fine with me but I don’t want is to close the dam off in a situation we’re at now

because there has got to be 3’ – 4’ of silt there. As the water level keeps going down, the silt keeps flowing in. What I’m saying is that if you fix the dam, I’m going to get stuck with just as much land as Corbins got under water on his property and I’ll have 4” – 6” of water (could not understand) swamp. I’m not going to fit the bill for cleaning this out. If it’s going to back to it’s natural state it is OK with me but if you are going to repair the dam you can’t just back the water up on to me because you are talking several acres. It’s free flowing right now. My area, it will either silt or keep building up and it will revert back to it’s natural state. Right now it is infested with misquitos because it is all bogs or swamp area.

Alan – At the present time, the water level is actually lower than it was a couple of years ago. That is what you are saying.

Mike – Oh, yea. Now it the water is flowing out because the dam is being perforated by the muskrats and overload.

Fred – I know you invited DEC to come down. What transpired?

John – All they basically talked about was the wildlife. They said there was no real impact because if the pond shrunk down to half of it’s size, the wildlife would still come. From a wildlife perspective, there is no issue. That is really the only issue they addressed.

Alan – If you build a man-made dam and then you are trying to let the water out over top of the dirt that you have pushed up and it starts to erode, you could loose the whole dam. It sounds like they came in and relieved it, relieved it on an area that was part of the native ground. That is probably where you are seeing the change in where the water level was. It is possible that it used to be higher or that the beavers or somebody created the dam a little bit higher than what they intended because they normally want 2’ or 3’ feet of solid ground above the water lever.

Ron – There was probably at the most 12” of dirt. That’s how high the water was.

Alan – Then you have to worry about downstream people having a big rush of water coming at them. When Jack brought in Crawfords, they probably did that to try and lower the pressure that was on the man-made part of the dam. That is probably why the water lever is lower than it was 4 or 5 years ago.

Ron – Since then the muskrats have moved in and now it has dropped lower so that now John’s property is starting to look like mine. Once the water ran down, I was left holding the bag. Now John, he has a 200’ swath going through it. His is starting to show like me. He has 8” to 10” of water.

Alan – You are telling me that that is an improvement in your property because before there were higher water levels.

Ron – It was always flooded back there. It was considered as Corbin’s pond but I own just as much as he does.

Alan – I guess I’m confused.

Ron – Look at the map. It shows you right there.

Alan – What you were saying is, when it was dammed up higher it was causing you more problems because the swamp was higher.

Ron – Not me. I was satisfied because the water table was up where it belongs. The water table now is gone and I am left with all the bottom land, empty. I have a creek probably 6’ to 8’ wide running down through it. I am left with all the silt and all the bogs keep growing up year after year. I’m, more or less, mosquito infested there but (could not understand) but he’s going to end up the same as mine. It is an eyesore but what are you going to do until nature takes its course.

Alan – I don’t know what happened in the past but I think structurally, they probably did what they did because they were afraid they were going to loose the main dam. When the muskrats come and start eating into the dam, then you have problems and it lowers it even more.

Fred – Bob, we asked you some specific questions to research.

Bob – You did?

Fred – Not me personally but we did. Can you respond to those?

Bob – What were those questions?

Fred – You have them written down.

Bob – I do? I’m not being facious. I don’t know what specific questions……………….

Fred – One of the specific ones is: What, if any, authority do we have to get involved in this issue?

Bob – The answer to that relates to the question the Mr. Herrin asked tonight. I think the question was that he is interested in the town becoming involved (changed tape) in that area and specifically how that may or may not relate to the need to maintain the existing dam which, I believe, shows on one of the photographs that we have. I believe that was your question.

Ron – Yes.

Bob – I think the answer is that, as Alan has indicated, this dam and this property are located on a privately owned parcel, the so called Corbin Estate. That is why I asked the question, what is the water source because if the water source is some kind of overflow or springs or whatever, as far as I know, it’s not a regulated stream or its not a natural body of water that was somehow diverted or dammed up or otherwise impacted by the actions taken as long ago as 50 years. If it’s not in the public arena, so called, I think a Town Board, as I understand the facts at this point in time, has no specific legal jurisdiction with respect to this question. You may as you want as a Town Board intervene, in a sense, by trying to obtain assistance in responding to these questions but I’m not sure that is your role because, as I see it, it was and is and may continue to be a private matter. I can tell you what I have done. The information base is interesting. I think the Herrins have had the same experience that I have had. I had a lengthy conversation with the attorney for the executor of the estate regarding where things stood and where they were going and so on because my focus was not exactly as it has been presented tonight. I wasn’t aware that this was the limited nature of this question tonight. I thought that there were other issues that were being looked at. I can tell you that there seems to be a lack of information, at this point in time, in terms of what is specifically going on on that property because I asked the question, “Are you aware of the status of the dam on the property and it’s condition?” The answer was “no”, the attorney wasn’t but that’s not ralevent. I said, “Do you now if the executor is?” The executor, as you know, is Trustco. I believe that the actual person responsible is the person that has been responsible for this property. I understand from this conversation that the property is fairly extensive from an acreage standpoint. It is 120-130-140 acres. Apparently it has an older house on it and some out buildings. The impression that I have is that they are working with the terms of a probated document that includes a will and some trusts that are interesting. My tact was to try and find out what is going on. Is there an active executor? Is there some kind of minimal maintenance being done on the building? Do you know what, if anything, the status of the pond is and what the issues are with the neighbors? I thought that was my charge to see if I could find out or develop along those lines. I don’t have anything to add to what has been said by the Herrins. In terms of the resolution of the water level and the dam and the pond, I believed before when we talked about this and I believe now, unless I’m convinced otherwise, which nothing I have heard tonight changes my mind, this is a private matter between and among private property owners. I don’t see a public issue here at this point. The facts can change. The dam is on private property and built by a private individual. The water is controlled privately. It may have an impact downstream and all of that may play into it but again, I don’t see a public issue yet.

Ron – Hypothetically, if the dam was repaired and the water balanced off where it was before, then I’m under water again. Now that becomes somebody else’s problem more than a private deal because the first place I would come running to is the Town to see if they could help me out. I don’t want the other guy’s water if they don’t clean up the mess first. If they aren’t going to clean it up, then it is going to revert back to a natural state.

Bob – Which is acceptable to you.

Ron – They have to clean it first, otherwise I don’t want the water. I don’t want the mess I’ve got right now. It is as simple as that. I don’t care if they clean it or not. That’s my attitude. I spent a lot of money this year surveying this whole property, putting fence posts all around it. The whole place is covered now. They go right through the pond. I have the fence posts up. If they are going to start backing water up onto me, somebody is going to catch hell unless it’s cleaned up. You wouldn’t want it done to your property. You wouldn’t want somebody to flood your back yard. It looked like hell.

Bob –I understand what you are saying.

Ron – That was caused by the pond not being maintained.

Bob – That may all very well be good. That doesn’t change my opinion as to what this body’s responsibility is.

Ron – I don’t believe that the town, at this particular time, has anything to do with what we are talking about.

Bob – But that was my charge.

Alan – Do you think that there is any information coming as far as what Trustco might be willing to do? Did they give you any indication that they might be willing to talk with their neighbors?

Bob – I believe there has been communication between Trustco and the Herrins. I don’t know what that communication is. It’s isn’t my business. I did not get the impression from talking with them that they were against talking with their neighbors. There was no stone-walling. They were very open and free with information to me. I think this is an interesting struggle on several different levels. It isn’t going to go away quickly.

Bob Rasmussen – A long time ago I had a lot to do with this estate. It has been plagued by a lot of (could not understand). Trustco initially was superb and the legal counsel that drew the trust was superb. As time moved on, there was a trustee not worthy of the name, etc. As I understand it, speaking from the point of private ownership, the alternate owners of this is a charitable organization. As such, the State Attorney General has a role in the estate matter. I don’t know what they will say to the Town but these are not going to be private owners, they are going to be charitable entity owners, which is a different matter all together. (Could not understand) Trustco’s responsibility as trustees until the death of a certain feline. After that the charities come in and they have a right to say to the attorney general that they aren’t getting (could not understand). At that point in time, would the Town be made a party to any discussions.

Bob – Probably not.

Bob R. – Would the Town have any responsibility (could not understand)

Bob – No, because the charity that I believe is the ultimate beneficiary is a not for profit corporation. I think it is in Scotia. We did talk about that when I talked to the attorney. They tell me that they are in communication with these folks. They are very well aware of the circumstances of what is going on. I was asked not to air this situation in detail. They are, in my opinion, struggling a little bit with the interpretation of some of the trust language --- what their rights and responsiblities are, what they can do after the cat dies, whether they can earn some income at the property, etc.

Bob R. – The property goes off the tax roll at some point in time?

Bob – One of the questions I asked was what is the intent? Is the intent that at some point in time the property will be sold? Is the property to be sold and turned into money for the charity? Is the charity going to use the property in its current condition? The answer, which is none of my business and none of the town boards business, was that they are taking a look at these options and they are not clear. They may wind up having to go back into court and seek some interpretation by the surrogate court judge. I was charged to do some fact gathering and to find out what, if any, their obligation was to become involved. I did it with no prejudice one way or the other. If we have to do something, my recommendation would be to do it.