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DRAFT - (see December Town Board Minutes for corrected/additions) Agenda Meeting Minutes November 24, 2003 Those present: Fred, Alan, Bernie and Dot. Bob was excused. The meeting began at 7:30 P.M. We will be having an executive session following the meeting to discuss litigation.
The agenda for the Town Board Meeting will include: Motion made by Councilman Schroeder, seconded by Councilman Grattidge that Resolution #92, A RESOLUTION AUTHORIZING SUPERVISOR ACUNTO TO ATTEND THE ASSOCIATION OF TOWNS ANNUAL MEETING IN NEW YORK CITY IN FEBRUARY AND TO SERVE AS THE VOTING DELEGATE FOR THE TOWN, be approved:
Approved: Fred stated that he received a call from a resident whose daughter had to leave school because of some stress problems, etc. She will be tutored but the tutor is 23 years old and did not want to tutor her at home with no one present. They asked if they could use the Town Hall on Monday, Tuesday, Thursday and Friday from 10:00 A.M. to Noon until the end of January. This started last week. It is not interfering with anything. If there are any concerns, I can tell them it was not approved by the rest of the board. The Board decided to let it continue unless it becomes a problem. There will be a workshop for the 2004 Organizational Resolutions on Tuesday, December 9 at 7:30 P.M.
Vern Ketchum was going to be here tonight to make a request for public water. After speaking with John Morgan and Fred, he wasn’t sure he would be here. He wanted to tap into copper tubing rather than a main and was told that it was the Board’s position to no longer allow that. Fred received a copy of a note that went from Leslie to Ron asking that if she needed the town to remove the collapsed old school house on Route 147 next to Stewarts, what would it cost? The property owner wants to know what would be added to their tax bill. Fred – I have had no information other than I had notified Leslie when I got the complaint. I don’t know how far along this is. Bob, have you had any communication? Bob VanVranken – I have not. Leslie – I wrote the family a letter that they need to do something about the collapsed building because we have something in the zoning that addresses that. In the letter I made reference to the law about collapsed structures and the town has a need to have it cleaned up. The man’s daughter called and asked what the letter meant. I told her the town could do it but the cost would then be passed on. She explained to me that her elderly father had no way to pay for it. She said that she would speak to her father and I would get her an estimate of what that would be. I asked Ron to give me a ballpark figure so I could let the daughter know how much it would be. Fred – Have you had any conversations with Bob regarding the legalities and where we are going with this? Leslie – No. Fred – If we get to the point of where it has to be removed by someone other than the owner, do we want the town getting in there because we don’t know what is in the building? Once we have taken this stuff, if it has hazardous waste or some other material, what do we do with it? I would rather that we keep at arms length and that we personally don’t get involved with the removal and that the Town Attorney be involved with this so that we know we are on firm ground before we start asking people to remove things and if we don’t remove them, we will be putting it on their tax bill. Bernie – In our zoning, doesn’t it say that if you don’t clean it up, we will clean it up for you? Bob VanVranken - It is under Appendix B, Other Local Laws and Ordinances. You have Ordinance #8 of June 1, 1967 which specifies the procedure that you use when you have a building in the current condition that Leslie is describing. There are all kinds of notice requirements. There is an evaluation process. There is a motion to the Supreme Court. There is a judicial order and then eventually the demolition pursuant to that order. This is a standard step by step process for dealing with collapsed buildings and it is right in your ordinance. Fred – I want to make sure as to following the correct procedure. Is this something you should be doing in the correspondence to the property owner so we are covering all of the bases and we don’t get ourselves into a jam? Bob VanVranken – In other towns with other similar ordinances there comes a point at which the zoning enforcement officer/building inspector gives the original notice. There is a certain way that you are supposed to do it. There can come a time when the town attorney sends another notice providing an opportunity to cure the defect. It lays it right out in here. Should I be involved? I should work with Leslie on this and know what’s going on. Leslie – In the past, sometimes all it takes is a letter. They realize they weren’t aware that they need to clean up and it gets cleaned up. I make reference that they should be aware that there is a law against having a collapsed structure in the Town of Charlton. Fred – Are they under any time restraints right now? Leslie – I gave them a certain amount of time that they should respond to my letter. From there I would need something in writing as to what their plan was. They would call me within 10 days. She will let me know what they are going to do and if they don’t have the money and they are not going to do it, then I would get in touch with Bob but I have never had to do that before. Fred – As far as the cost, does anybody share the same concern that I have that we don’t really don’t want it to be the town highway department cleaning this up only because we don’t know what we are getting into? Dot – There appears to be quite a bit of stuff in the building. Leslie – When I discussed what was in the building --- her mother was an antique collector and it is full of antiques. I contacted the historical society because of the historical value of the structure. Mrs. VanDerzee went out to see if there was anything that could be saved but since it has been collapsed for some time it has a lot of water damage. Fred – I am worried if there is any asbestos in the place. Bob VanVranken – Part of your review process is that it is professionally evaluated down the line by town designated representatives. The owner also has an opportunity to designate their own representatives and then a report comes back to you. The way I understand how Leslie has approached this, that process hasn’t even begun because there has to be a referral to you that starts the process. Then you appoint a representative to make an inspection and then it flows from there. Bernie – So it will be a lengthy process no matter what? Bob VanVranken – Reasonably lengthy. There are some built in time delays. I think that statute calls for as much as 30 days to start the removal, 60 days to complete it and so on. The law bends over backwards to give the property owner the opportunity to make it right which is as it should be. Alan – At this point you wouldn’t recommend trying to come up with some kind of a number from the town’s standpoint? You would maybe advise Leslie to tell them it has to be cleaned up or the town will have to start a procedure of having it cleaned up. Bob VanVranken – Yes, because the problem you have, and I’m not sure whether it is customary in the town to have the highway department be your demolition crew, because I would suggest something where you go and get an outside contractor to do it and that is passed on to the property owner. The property owner has apparently indicated that they don’t have any money to pay for it. At this point in time, it gets to be a lien against the property until such time as the property is sold or cleaned up. Bernie – Then do we tell this demolition company that they don’t have any money and you’re not going to get paid you will have to put a lien on………………… Bob VanVranken – The town will pay for it. Fred – It sounds to me that the best route to follow is that Leslie should get in touch with Bob at their convenience and write the first suitable letter to the homeowner and we will go from there. Is that what the Board feels they want to do? Bernie – Certainly they should hook up and send a letter. Didn’t you already send a letter? Leslie – I did. I sent an informational letter. Bob VanVranken – (Could not understand) Fred – We will leave it that Leslie will get in touch with Bob. Fred – We received a letter of prior notice from a resident on Redwood Drive notifying us of his feelings about the condition of the creek that goes across his property. I sent a copy of this to Bob. He asked that I do some research. (Town Board is looking at map.) The problem Mr. Hughes is talking about is over here where we don’t have any jurisdiction. Whenever this got developed, we maintained it up to and underneath Redwood and there is where our obligation ends at the end of that pipe. Wherever this water goes after it leaves, and obviously Mr. Hughes is saying it is backing up from whatever is down here somewhere…… It is a Class A stream. Bernie – It is a Class B stream. John Morgan – Class A. Fred – Bob, you will have to write (could not understand) Alan – When Mr. Hughes sent the letter Ron did send some of the fellows from the highway crew down and they attempted to clean the leaves and debris out of what was right behind Mr. Hughes’ house. There was an attempt made to get the drainage flowing past his property. From that point on it flows on down toward Charlton Heights School. He is indicating that the problem is between his property and Stage Road. There are no easements back there. Bob VanVranken – Isn’t he saying that at some point in time on his property, or beyond his property, there is a dam caused by the debris that is floating down that stream and eventually stops the normal flow and allows it to back up and it floods his back yard/side yard, whatever. What are the issues of fact here? What is floating down? Where is it landing? When is it going there? Does the town have any jurisdiction beyond the easement or certainly the culvert area? Do we have an obligation to somehow prohibit that, to put some kind of trap underneath the culvert to trap the debris? I don’t know if we can do that because now the blockage will stay there rather than go downstream. I think it is a fact-based situation but clearly at this point in time the problem is on private property, as I understand it. The blockage is off his land. Alan – After it leaves Redwood is it contained in the stream when it goes past his property? Mike Emerich – For the most part, yes. There are different spots where it runs off. It is all grown up. Alan – Once it gets beyond his property, do you think it just spreads out then or does it stay in a channel? Mike – (Could not understand) There are no tall trees. It is all 6’ high scrub brush back in there. Bob VanVranken – It is silted? It is just filled in? Mike – I didn’t look it over good enough to see. Bob VanVranken – It is tough to know what the appropriate move it because of the fact base. I assume this just didn’t happen. Alan – He indicates in this letter that he has been maintaining at least his property and beyond. Bob VanVranken – The way the letter reads, it sounded like everybody was dumping everything in their back yard into this creek bed and it was flowing down eventually forming a dam down beyond his property and was backing up and covering his land. Without knowing where is the dam? Is that academic now? Is it silted in so much that the flow that has been altered unalterably? Does it mean cleaning out the channel? This sounds to me like a private property issue, not a Town of Charlton issue. The closeness to the culvert underneath the road raises at least an issue of looking at it. Bernie – Is there any issue because our right of way between those houses is the creek? Bob VanVranken – I think the right of way is for access. To twist it around and have it be a responsibility as well to go back up that right of way and make sure everybody is not dumping stuff in………..I would think not. It would be nice if the blockage was in the right of way because then it would be a little bit easier because then you would go to the right of way area under the control of the town and clean it up. Because this is beyond……………. Maybe you could get an independent town engineer evaluation of what is going on. What we have heard is the property owner’s representation of a fact but that has not been independently verified. I don’t believe that he has had it examined professionally. We assume he hasn’t. Then the question is, do you want to have somebody send one of their crew down there to find out where is the blockage and report back to you? Fred – You’re talking about just within our easement, not in this other area that we have no control over? Bob VanVranken – My suggestion is that Mr. Hughes would let the representative on his land and walk beyond that. Alan – Mike, have you observed a lot of debris coming down between Komar and Redwood in the section that we do have that…………….? Mike – I got a call today from a lady on Beechwood and we went down and looked at the creek behind her house. She said it was flowing out and flowing into her yard. We observed three houses at least that were dumping leaves right next to the stream. When we have rain like we had the other day, it would wash them right down the creek. Alan - We need to definitely send some notices out to those rows of houses that back up that stream to keep their yard waste out of that. Mike – We should notify everybody on the north side of Crestwood, too. Alan – I think we should have the town engineer contact Mr. Hughes and take a look at his particular situation and advise us, from an engineering point, what they feel the problem is. We should probably address the homes that are on Crestwood and Beechwood with some kind of notice. Maybe that could be hand delivered to those particular homes. We should at least try to establish that they aren’t to put leaves in a watercourse. Fred – I think it is more than leaves. It is brush, tree branches, soda bottles, etc. Sandy Verola – I think things get blown in there too. Fred – It looks like lots #81 - #86 on Beechwood and #90 - #95 on Crestwood which could be potential problems. Mike – Sequoia. John Morgan - And part of Komar. Alan – I will work with Mike and Ron to identify which properties and then come up with some kind of notice. Do we want to send Mr. Hughes a notice? Bob VanVranken – You could give him a call and tell him the town is looking at the facts and not sure there is a town obligation but we want to help out to the extent possible. Are you going to do anything with the engineer? Fred – Yes. Fred – Gary Vanderhorst is stepping down from the Planning Board and the members have asked that we prepare a resolution. They will be having a small get together next week with him. Motion made by Councilman Grattidge, seconded by Councilman Schroeder that Resolution #93, A RESOLUTION THANKING AND COMMENDING GARY VANDERHORST FOR HIS SERVICE TO THE TOWN OF CHARLTON, be approved:
Approved: Fred – The final issue we have is the issue we tabled on the zoning administrator’s computer. We had two recommendations, one from our consultant gave us an estimate of $2,0008.00 and Leslie submitted something in the neighborhood of $3,162.00. Where do we want to go from here? Bernie – We were supposed to have Leslie and Craig here tonight. Fred – Craig cannot be here. My feeling is to proceed with the recommendation of Craig Jones. That would be the $2,0008.00 set up. Leslie – I’m not sure where you get the $3,100.00 figure. My proposal was very close to his. I went on line to Dell, who has the government contract, and put in all the information and had a print out of it. When I finally got through the Mr. Jones, he emailed me with what he thought that I needed. I was very surprised that I was getting something other than a Dell for the same money for a machine that was slower but by all means the town can order whichever they want. I did also ask Mr. Jones to look into a digital camera because I have many occasions where I have to go out into the field. I record information on paper but it would be nice to take a picture because sometimes I have to bring information to court. I don’t have the ability to do that. I also run into the problem where I can’t use the copier in this room if there is a meeting going on on Tuesday night. For very little additional expense, you can get an all in one printer that will copy and fax. The ability to be able to do that in the zoning office would be a wonderful thing. If the town board thinks that a simple printer is all the office needs, that’s fine. I can work with that. Mr. Jones recommended a 4 or 5 pixel camera. A 2 pixel camera is about $150.00 and the ability with the software to download it to a CD to have it for the town file and printed out if I need to go to court……... I know there was mention that the assessors have a camera. I spoke to Marge Dennis about the logistics of when I would need to borrow that and we were having a hard time figuring out how that would work. If I had to go out on something in the afternoon, I would need to call her and have her meet me here and get the camera and return it to her. If that is something that the town finds I should work within those boundaries, I will be happy to try to do that. The computer for the zoning office is reimbursed by the State under the guidelines of the new building codes so when I started this over a year ago, we just needed to order it and the town would get their money back. Fred – It doesn’t really work that way. There is a certain amount of paperwork that has to go. I am not aware of any reimbursement. Leslie - When the new national codes and residential codes went into effect, the state was reimbursing any building departments that needed to upgrade or purchase new equipment. Fred – I’d have to see that. Bernie – Craig recommended Dell for Kathy. Fred – No, Premio. Leslie – As long as the software is compatible with the assessors and the other computers as I give my disc to the assessor’s office so they can download my reports every month. As long as it is compatible, it doesn’t matter if it is Dell or not. Fred – I don’t think there was any problem originally with going with Craig’s recommendation of $2,008.00 which was the Premio, the Samsung display, the office software, the Laser Jet 1000, the onsite support exchange service, the wireless PCI adapter and his installation charges. That is where we thought we were headed and then the issue came up on a whole new number of $3,200.00 or something to that effect. Bernie – We have always discussed the figure of $3,000.00 when we had minor discussions on getting a computer for that office. We said not to exceed $3,000.00 for months now and that is what came up in the resolution. Leslie – I don’t remember seeing on his original proposal the digital camera. He sent something later with the description of the camera and it was much more than what I would ever think would be needed in the office. Fred – Before we get to that, I think I would rather stay focused on the recommendation of the computer consultant. His recommendation is the recommendation of the $2,008.00. I would support that and that is about as far as I would go right now. Bernie – In order for Leslie to fax anything or receive a fax she has to get into the town clerk’s office. It may severely impair function in the zoning office. She would be able to expedite somebody’s application in one night rather than wait to get into Gail’s office. People are anxious. Fred – We all suffer the same hardships. We have one fax machine that everybody in this office uses. That fax machine is on a dedicated line for the entire building that we pay for just for that fax machine. For another fax machine for one office that is here one night a week, we are going to pay for a telephone dedicated line for 24/7 doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. Bernie – No, it wouldn’t be a dedicated line. Leslie – That goes through the computer. The printer and the fax/copier is all in one. If I wanted to send a fax I would just go through the regular phone line. Fred – You can’t do it with this phone system. It is separate from the entire phone system in this building because of each department having their own voice mail. For a fax machine to be in that office would require another dedicated line. We pay the business rate and it is expensive. Bernie – How come at home I have a fax machine and a phone line on the same line? Fred – Because that phone works out of her department code. You cannot get a fax machine into that system because it is a branch number. It has to be a dedicated line. Alan – I wonder if talking to Craig and the phone people if we shouldn’t start thinking about having some networking capabilities. As the computer becomes more and more a part of our world, we will probably have to look at that type of a set up. Fred – I could support the recommendation of Craig Jones to the $2,008.00 at this point. Bernie – I could support that but I would recommend that we get a dedicated digital camera. It is about $150.00 more and we are far from the original $3,000.00 we talked about. We are down at $2,000.00. We could make the office function a little more smoothly. Fred – I am looking at Craig’s letter to see what he was recommending. Bernie – He did have a nicer camera. Alan – The Cannon Camera is $197.89. Motion made by Councilman Schroeder, seconded by Councilman Mitchell that Resolution #94, A RESOLUTION AUTHORIZING THE ZONING ADMINISTRATOR TO PROCEED WITH THE PURCHASE OF A COMPUTER, PERIPHERALS AND THE NECESSARY SOFTWARE AT NEW YORK STATE CONTRACT RATES AND THAT IT WILL NOT EXCEED $2,300.00, be approved:
Approved: Fred – The Highway Department is anxious to get a pick up truck so they can have it ready for snow. Motion made by Councilman Grattidge, seconded by Councilman Schroeder that Resolution #95, A RESOLUTION AUTHORIZING THE HIGHWAY SUPERINTENDENT TO PURCHASE A 2004 FORD PICK UP MODEL F350 FROM GENESEE TRUCK SALES AT STATE CONTRACT PRICE AT A COST NOT TO EXCEED $21,269.50 WITH THE UNDERSTANDING THAT IT WILL GO INTO NEXT YEAR’S BUDGET ALLOCATION, be approved: Mike – It is almost the same power as the diesel that is in the red truck but it is about $4,000.00 cheaper. Approved:
Councilman Reports: Fred – After I talked with you in the morning, I got this from my mailbox. It is a single estimate for the lighting district of $93,615.00. When you say how to proceed…………. Dot – What we need to do is to be able to have something to start with on applying for grants. Fred – Before we get to that point I think we need to determine how this is going to be developed. Is it going to be developed as a lighting district supported by the residents within the lighting district? Dot – Or would it be supported by the entire town? Not for installation. Fred – It would be everything. It would be installation and operation and maintenance. It would be the whole thing. Doris Stauffer – No, we intend to get grants and we are going to work on that. We are not expecting the town………………… Fred – I don’t want to talk about grants right now. I want to talk about what are we developing. Are we developing a lighting district, which is a special district, which would have to follow the same procedure as a water district---by petition, better than 50% of the residents within the district would support the entire cost of engineering, legal installation and operating and maintenance? Is that what we are saying we are going to do? Alan – I think this may be some of the first questions we need to address before we start going down the road of looking for grants and having the engineer evaluate everything. This is the first time that I saw this information. I need a little time to digest this. A meeting with the town attorney might be appropriate to talk about the advantages and disadvantages of the different ways to proceed with this. Fred – I agree with you. We are talking about potentially over $100.000.00. for less than ˝ mile and that needs an awful lot of consideration as far as what else has to be done to be shovel ready for this installation. Are we talking about filling in ditches to permit this to happen? We have to get approval of the county to even see if they would permit this kind of activity. There is an awful lot of homework that would have to be done before we even attempt to say go out and look for money for this particular grant when we don’t even know how we are going to fund it. Doris – We have to take steps and we have to start a process. There are two things that we mentioned in that. One was forming a lighting district. In going through this with an attorney he came up with a contract way of doing this. Fred – I read that and as one board member I would say unequivocally, if it were going to be by contract, I don’t agree at all, with respect to the attorney. I feel this Article 19 of the Town Law refers to individual lights for special hazardous conditions at intersections. I don’t think the intent of Article 19 is for a total lighting district. Maybe Article 64 or 65 which deals with petition is more to the intent of the law to be a total lighting district. That needs some real discussion between this board and my own level of comfort. I don’t really see the contract as the route to follow. If it has to be, I will go on to say that if it is by contract, I would only do it by a town-wide referendum where the people would decide if they want to see $100,000.00 added to their general fund budget for a small lighting district. I just feel we have got this horse way down the road and the horse we are talking about today may be a different color tomorrow. I will go on record as acknowledging the receipt of this but I certainly think there needs to be a lot of homework done before we make any more steps toward even considering whether it will be under Article 19 or 64. Doris – I totally agree with that. Fred – We will hold that. Alan – We should possibly have the town attorney take a look at it and render his opinion on some of the ramifications. Dot – I spoke with John Mesick. He would be able to meet with us. Possible times would be Monday, December 1st in the afternoon. On Monday the 8th either day or evening. The week of December 8th –12th his schedule is fairly open. He could meet with us in the afternoon or evening, whichever is better. We have meet with him at 3:30 or 4:00 if that would work with everyone. Fred – I would rather wait until after the first of the year. There is too much going at the county. Why don’t we hold off until January and we will get back to him as far as a date. Laura Linder – What was the outcome on the Historic District and the lighting district? Fred – We will wait for an executive summary from Bob VanVranken as to what route we will be following and what steps we have to take. Laura – It isn’t just going on the shelf? Fred - No. We are waiting to hear from Bob. Is there anything on water, John? I am assuming Mr. Ketchum is withdrawing his verbal request to be here. John – After the discussion we had must be he changed his mind and is going to wait. Mike – The trusses are up on the salt shed.
Motion made by Councilman Schroeder, seconded by Councilman Grattidge that the meeting be adjourned to an executive session to discuss litigation, be approved:
Approved: The meeting was adjourned at 8:30 P.M.
Respectfully submitted,
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