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Regular Meeting August 13, 2002 Charlton Town Board Saratoga County New York
After the pledge to the flag, the invocation was given by Town Clerk Gail Hanchar.
At the regular meeting of the Town Board of Charlton, Saratoga County, New York held at
. . . . . Councilman Grattidge
Motion made by Councilman Schroeder, seconded by Councilman Grattidge that the minutes of the July 8, 2002 Public Hearing and Town Board Meeting and the July 29, 2002 Agenda Meeting be accepted as received. PASSED UNANIMOUSLY.
ABSTRACT OF CLAIMS:
General Fund: Abstract of Claims totaling $18,666.76. Motion made by Councilman Schroeder, seconded by Councilman Grattidge.
Highway Fund: Abstract of Claims totaling $78,126.13. Motion made by
Water Fund: Abstract of Claims totaling $3,557.27. Motion made by Councilman Schroeder, seconded by Councilman Grattidge.
Vouchers for the month were #687 to #793.
TOWN CLERK'S REPORT:
Gail Hanchar read the Town Clerk's Report. She reported taking in $136.95. Motion made by Councilman Schroeder, seconded by Councilman Grattidge. PASSED UNANIMOUSLY.
PRIVILEGE OF THE FLOOR (Agenda Items):
Supervisor Acunto - At this time Privilege of the Floor is for agenda items only. There will be a 5-minute limit. I would like you to please carefully read the printed agendas. I want to clarify, because I am aware of a distribution of an announcement that this board is going to be entertaining the approval of a 49-lot subdivision. That is totally incorrect information. If you will look at the agenda, it will tell you that we are working on potentially adopting Local Law #3 after a public hearing that was held on July 8 which dealt with a one-year moratorium on any extensions to the water district. We are not discussing or working on anything in regard to a 49-lot subdivision. If you are going to speak to that, I will not permit any discussion on any 49-lot subdivision. We will talk about a moratorium if you wish to talk about a moratorium.
Joe Marchesiello - Crooked Street - That 49 lot housing development is supposed to be excluded and I think we have the right to ask why?
Supervisor Acunto - You can ask that but we are not going to discuss anything about the subdivision itself. The subdivision is not part of our agenda tonight.
Joe Marchesiello - Could not understand question.
Supervisor Acunto - Subdivision approval requires a public hearing. We as a board cannot do anything to approve a water extension without having a public hearing.
Joe Marchesiello - I'm talking about the subdivision not the water.
Supervisor Acunto - The subdivision has been approved. The subdivision was approved 9 years ago.
Joe Marchesiello - I beg to differ with that.
Supervisor Acunto - Excuse me. You have not been recognized.
Councilman Schroeder - At the end of the meeting there is a second privilege of the floor and you can bring up anything you want. I think what Fred is saying is that in this initial privilege of the floor, you will be limited to items that are agenda items.
Resident - In the moratorium it says, "to provide for an additional storage for water". My question is "What is additional storage?" To me that is a water tower. Where are you requiring putting this second water tower? Where will the pumping station be? Will it be pumping from Station #1 which is on Charlton Road? Will it go through my backyard? That is enough to get me a bit upset. I like what it says here, "that the town wants to do everything in a prudent manner". Then I think we should take everything into consideration and everyone can discuss it. This is general terms. We need something of what is actually going on.
Supervisor Acunto - You are correct. When the public hearing is held, it will be determined if there is going to be an extension to the water district. This is not the appropriate time because we have nothing in front of us to extend a water district pertaining to that subdivision.
Janet Reville - Crooked Street - There are 49 homes referenced in this Local Law #3 that are exempted from this moratorium. Where are those specific 49 residences?
Supervisor Acunto - The subdivision is on the intersection of Crooked Street and Swaggertown Road.
Janet Reville - If you have exempted 49 homes in this law, then the 49 homes on Crooked Street and Swaggertown are part of this conversation because it is part of this law that is going to be passed.
Supervisor Acunto - Approximately 9 years ago the Planning Board approved a subdivision in that location. Phase I of that subdivision is approximately 25 homes. That has been approved subject to the extension of the water district. The total subdivision in three phases would total 49. There would need to be another approval by the Planning Board for Phase II and Phase III.
Janet Reville - Why are we exempting all 49, even as a starting point in this law, if 23 were approved?
Supervisor Acunto - It is the way it has been written. If the board chooses to change that to some other number, that is up to the board.
Janet Reville - Personally, as a resident, I don't think it makes sense to include 49 homes if only 23 have gotten some other previous approval to an exemption on a moratorium.
Supervisor Acunto - It is something the board can consider when it comes to voting on the resolution.
Resident - This land on which the subdivision was approved, wasn't that a wetlands area?
Supervisor Acunto - That is a question I think you are going to have to direct to the members of the Planning Board. Town Engineer Jim Mitchell from Environmental Design Partnership is here. We aren't talking about the subdivision. If you want to talk about the moratorium we will continue the discussion. You'll need to go to the next Planning Board meeting if you want to raise that question.
Resident - They are tied together because if you put water on a wetlands you will flood it.
Supervisor Acunto - I am not going to get into a discussion on the subdivision.
John Simoni - Maple Avenue - This 5-minute regulation is unheard of in such an important matter as this is tonight. I think there are many people here who would relinquish their 5 minutes to me so I intend to take more than 5 minutes.
Supervisor Acunto - You will get 5 minutes like everyone else, Mr. Simoni.
John Simoni - I can take someone else's time.
Supervisor Acunto - That's fine.
John Simoni - Please don't try and shut down people who are concerned about their community and want to talk about their community. If we have to stay here all night long, we can stay here all night long. We're not talking to 4th graders in school and we're not sitting behind a bench with a robe on. As Supervisor of the town you are a servant of the people in this town. I would like to start out with why we are here on Tuesday and why weren't we here last night. I'd like to know why the town board meeting was changed?
Supervisor Acunto - The meeting was adjourned at the last Agenda meeting because I was not available and the board agreed. They could have gone on with the meeting but they determined they did not want to go on unless they had a full board.
John Simoni - I was here at that meeting. You pushed the whole thing. You're the one that decided you couldn't be here. I don't know where you went. Did something urgent go on?
Supervisor Acunto - I don't particularly think that is germane to the topic.
John Simoni - You changed the town board meeting night which is scheduled at the beginning of the year. You try to give proper notice, I guess. The only notice I know of was in Saturday's paper. Something in The Saratogian said the meeting was last night and I guess there was a notice on the board outside. If I wasn't sitting at that Agenda Meeting no one practically would have known that the Town Board Meeting was changed and this action would have taken place with probably two people. I just wonder why it was changed. I am very suspicious of why it was changed. What happens when you can't make a meeting and you have a personal reason? What has been done historically in this town is that you make your agenda out, you turn it over to your deputy supervisor and he runs the meeting. I think I know why you didn't do that. It was because you wanted to be here to be the third deciding vote on this issue. You knew probably it wouldn't be decided if you weren't here. You wanted to push this along. That is the reason why you said we will be here Tuesday and not put it off until next month. Does this local law provide for the people for a permissive referendum?
Bob VanVranken (Town Attorney) - No.
John Simoni - Could that law be written in a manner that provides for it?
Bob VanVranken - It could be but wasn't.
John Simoni - It doesn't have to be acted upon tonight. It could be written in a manner that would allow the people of the water district to have a permissive referendum, which means you have a right to come and vote if you want this local law written the way it is or not. It would be your prerogative to do it. That would make a lot more sense. You would be responding to the people and not to some dictatorial thing that I see going on here. At the Agenda Meeting I listened in amazement because at the scheduled meeting before I brought up a lot of issues. I came to the Agenda Meeting to hear the board discuss the issues I brought up. There was no discussion. There was one statement made by Mr. Grattidge that there is a hardship clause in there and that will take care of any problems. There was no discussion about all the things that were brought up. Not anything! Your job is to discuss the issues. You passed out a letter from Mr. VanVranken's office. You didn't discuss the letter at all at the agenda session. You passed out a letter from an engineer. You didn't discuss that at the agenda session. So what discretion is this board taking to address the questions that were asked at the last meeting? Was there a secret meeting someplace? I don't know but there wasn't any public meeting. With the moratorium as it stands, most of us are in full agreement with it except for one thing. You are exempting the subdivision. The moratorium itself states that you, "want to address the water district, in a prudent manner, the expansion and/or extension". Do that. But then to exempt the largest possible impact which would be this proposed 49/25 subdivision. You are exempting that from the examination. Why would you not want to include that? It would seem to me that would be a very important issue on the impact. What's going to happen? You're going to grant them. They will do the 49 homes and then you are going to say to the rest of the people in town who live here and want water, "Sorry there is no more capacity left?" I don't know what you are going to say but I know they should be included in the study. You've said that the 49-house subdivision is not part of this issue. It is. This is your first step in letting this subdivision go forward. I want to go back 12 years ago because it is important. The Town Board at that time (I was on the Town Board) said to the Planning Board, look at that subdivision and see if there is the possibility of a cluster development. The Planning Board looked at it and said yes. Nothing happened. Everything dropped and was at a standstill. The developers never came back to the Town Board or the Planning Board. They didn't go anyplace. Now we have new rules and regulations by the Department of Health. We have rules by the Ground Water Storm Team. All these new regulations are out. I say it is time to reexamine that whole subdivision. I have called you and said lets sit down with the Planning Board and the Town Board and reexamine this whole thing. Let's call the Department of Health in and say, "Is this subdivision really any good today? We were told it is but all these things are happening". What are some of the things that happened?
Supervisor Acunto - Your 5 minutes are up.
Ann Booth relinquished her 5 minutes to Mr. Simoni.
John Simoni - As we start to research this situation and as Mr. VanVranken alludes to in his letter to you, he talks about many situations that have occurred that only a judicious system could examine and correct. We cannot find the Planning Board minutes that authorized those first 25 houses. That is the only minutes that are missing out of the last 10 years. Somebody said that they were taped and then they were over-taped. I can't find a Planning Board member at that time that can remember passing a resolution authorizing the Chairman of the board to sign (could not understand). Today we have all those maps. Those maps for this approved subdivision were presented to the county. When you present a map of a subdivision requiring water you draw water lines on it. I was told this was the first and only map they have ever seen for an approved subdivision with water without the lines on it. There are no lines on it because nobody ever approved the water for that subdivision. It is total, total confusion. The moratorium, as it stands now, is stating that everybody in the town is under the moratorium and everybody else in the town is at a standstill except the developers who don't even have a house here. If it's good for us, it's good for them. There was never a commitment from this town board to give that subdivision water. If it ever came before us and I was on the board, I would have said, "Let's go to the people. Let's see what they want to do. Do they want to add onto their water district? Is that what they want?" That never occurred. So these people really do not have any right to water in that subdivision at the present time. I know he has some high-power attorney here tonight. I have lived with them before. We seem to be guided by attorneys and engineers and seem to be intimidated by them. They don't live in this town. They weren't elected. You were and we want you to protect us. That is what we want. We don't want to listen to attorneys and engineers. I don't care what they say. I want what's right for the people, not what they believe to be legally correct. I certainly hope that you are going to be asking for anyone to recluse themselves because of a conflict of interest, attorneys or engineers. Mr. Grattidge I feel has a severe conflict of interest. He is a developer. He builds septic systems and driveways. Mr. Grattidge, you should not be voting on this issue.
Councilman Grattidge - I have nothing to do with that, John.
Supervisor Acunto - John, your time is up.
Laurie Mannix - Komar Drive - Relinquished her 5 minutes to Mr. Simoni.
John Simoni - What we would like you to do is form a committee with people who live in the water district. Nobody on the Town Board lives in the water district. We need to sit down and talk about the problem. If you want a moratorium then let's have a real moratorium. That is what we are asking you for. Ten years ago when that subdivision was granted we didn't have water on the main street. Since that time we have added water on the main street and have created another dent in the water system. Things have changed. If we have to take legal action against them, we will take legal action against them. We are not going to be intimidated and we don't want you to be intimidated. In summary, please do not exclude the subdivision. Amend it and include them. Let's go forward and bring the people in.
Bob Killeen - Charlton Road - Nine years ago to whom was the approval give to for this subdivision?
Supervisor Acunto - To my knowledge it was Capital Reality.
Bob Killeen - They are no longer in business as such. They have sold that property. Who is the developer now?
Supervisor Acunto - I am not aware that the property has been sold to anybody other than Capital Reality who possesses control of that land.
Bob Killeen - Do they have a representative here that can answer that?
Mr. Burns - Attorney for Capital Real Estate - Capital Real Estate is still in business. They still own the property and pay taxes on 49 individual lots because of action taken by the Planning Board back in 1993 when they approved the subdivision.
Bob Killeen - Do you have that in writing because apparently no one else has? As I recall, being on the Planning Board at that time, it was not approved for 49 units. It was done in three phases. We also have a lawsuit against you for illegally logging.
Attorney for Capital Real Estate - That was dismissed a long time ago.
Bob Killeen - We did but as I recall, you backed off.
Paul St. John - Crane Street - Mr. Simoni has made a bunch of statements, some of which are totally incorrect. He says, "I talked to everybody". No he didn't. He didn't talk to enough of the people on the Planning Board at that time to know what he is talking about. There are signed plot plans for that subdivision, at least there were the last time I looked. There are a number of documents that go with all of what's going on. We know we need a new tower now and we know we need to study the whole issue so let's move forward and study the issue and find out what we need to do to comply with the Department of Health laws and regulations and go forward from there.
Mitch Brodsky - Hillandale Drive - We buy our water from Glenville. How much more water will they be willing to supply us, especially in the light of new developments? Are we going to have enough water to supply any more homes?
Jim Mitchell - Town Engineer - It is my understanding that the contract with the Town of Glenville was revised a year or two ago. In that contract they agreed to sell additional water to the town.
Councilman Lippiello - The contract currently is 14 million gallons a year.
Jim Mitchell - Right now the town uses about 150,000 gallons a day.
Councilman Lippiello - The town agrees to buy a minimum of 14 million gallons per year. I don't see a cap.
Supervisor Acunto - It seems like it doesn't have a cap.
Mr. Brodsky - It sounds to me like we have insufficient water now.
Supervisor Acunto - The Attorney for the Water District is here. It is my understanding that when or if we ever get to the point of the issue of the water extension, there will have to be a formal request to Glenville for that water?
Bill Keniry - Attorney for the Water District - That is correct. My understanding is there has been some fairly significant discussion. There is a commitment by the Town of Glenville to supply the necessary water with respect to this particular district. We are not aware that there are any quantity problems.
Mr. Donald Zee- Attorney for Bordeau Builders - I have a copy of the 1993 Planning Board agreement with the developer that was signed by all the parties specifically approving the project. In addition, I have a copy of the filed subdivision maps with the County of Saratoga. They are a matter of public record. These documents have all been submitted to the town Planning Board and the reason they were submitted to the Planning Board is that this process that we are in right now did not just start yesterday or last month. Initially Mr. Burns and his predecessor had been working with the town in attempting to establish this water extension district. There were various problems. Sometime in 2001 Gary Bordeau entered into a contract and we continued on with the process. During that process we have communications that were referred to and submitted to the Town Planning Board dealing with the steps that my client would have to take before we could even come to the Town Board to have a public hearing for the water extension for the project. We haven't gotten to that point yet. We have, however, gone through a lot of technical reviews by the town engineers, the town attorney and the town's water district attorney for them to review all the legal aspects and the technical aspects. I know there are a lot of people concerned about the water district and the impact to the residents. With regard to the water district itself, right now the needs of the community from a technical standpoint, as required by the Department of Health and the Department of Environmental Conservation requires to have storage facilities of at least 157,000 gallons a day. You do not have that. So you are violation, technically, of that requirement. My client's subdivision required somewhere between 17,000 and 22,000 gallons of storage. The town has indicated to us that that they do not believe that putting in 22,000-gallon facility it is in the best interest of the municipality. We want to put in a 50,000-gallon facility. I am not using the word "tower" because it is not a tower. It is a tank. We gave technical information to the Planning Board. The reason why we gave it to the Planning Board is because the Planning Board is the lead agency under SEQR. The Planning Board took our SEQR Review, which is all the environmental and technical impacts of the project. They then circulated it to all the involved agencies and nobody came forth to the Planning Board. The Planning Board approved the environmental impact and said, "No problem". All of the improvements for the water facility, which are approximately $600,000.00, will be paid by my client and installed. We will not be going through anybody's private land. We will be going through public streets. To assure that this will be accomplished, my client will be obligated to establish an escrow account with the town prior to any construction or any approval of $6000,000.00 at a minimum, to ensure that everything is done properly.
Gary Heflin relinquished his 5 minutes to Mr. Zee.
Mr. Zee - With regard to the water situation, it will all be at my client's expense. All engineering will be reviewed by the town engineer, the Department of Health as well as the Department of Environmental Conservation prior to anybody being entitled to start any work in the project. By adding the additional 49 lots on to the water district, existing residents who are in the district will be reducing your annual charges. There is a certain debt level in the water district. By adding the 49 additional units, you will be reducing that load spreading that debt along to 49 additional units. The first 25 lots have been approved. They are paying taxes on those lots. With regard to issue of further impacts and reviews, that will always be up to review by the Planning Board as we come back in the next set of projects. With regard to the issue of why there are 49 lots, under SEQR, DEC wants to avoid segmented reviews. As a result, when you come forward you have to look at the project in its totality. The application has been before the Planning Board for 49 lots. It would be inappropriate to segment the review and say 25 now and come back later. There was an issue of conflict of interest concerning Alan Grattidge. I know the contractor Mr. Bordeau is negotiating with regard to the installation of the infrastructure and the materials he is applying. He is located in Schenectady County. So I do not believe there is even an appearance of impropriety on the part of Mr. Grattidge. There was a resolution approved by the Town Board of Glenville authorizing the water extension of the water district, if it is approved by the board. As the supervisor indicated, we are not ready at this point to have a public hearing. We still have to finish up minor documentation needed to satisfy the water counsel for the town.
David Pohl - Crawford Drive - Where will the water tank be located?
Supervisor Acunto - It is within the subdivision.
Bill Gallup - Crooked Street - It says at least 49 lots. I had been to most of those meetings of the Planning Board. As far as Capital Real Estate is concerned, theirs was up to 49 because if they had over 49 lots, it would need a municipal septic system. The water was to come from existing water that was available from the town system. That was supposed to be in your contract. It was all talked about. Capital Real Estate had a letter from Glenville, supposedly. Where is the water tank going? Will it replace some of the lots or is that going in the place where the trees were cut? The land that was given to the town because of cluster housing-the land around the perimeter of it was to be forever wild. The trees were cut on town land. That is why Mr. Simoni got so mad at the time. Can we answer some of these questions?
Supervisor Acunto - My information is second hand. It is my understanding that the storage facility is going to be on one of the lots within the subdivision.
Bill Gallup - So it will be less than 49 lots.
Supervisor Acunto - That is a Planning Board question. I cannot answer that question.
Bill Gallup - I would like to have the wording changed to "up to 49", not at least 49.
Councilman Grattidge - I think some of the houses along Crooked Street were going to be also in that district.
Bill Gallup - It turns out that we are paying a lot more for water than Glenville is.
Supervisor Acunto - Glenville sets the rate. We have no control over what Glenville wants to charge for water, not only in Charlton, but also in Ballston and Clifton Park. We have no say in the matter.
Jim Green - Engineer for the developer - The houses along Crooked Street, if this board wishes to exclude those houses, we have no objections. Those houses were included because we thought the town wanted them included. If they wish to be excluded, we can modify the report and exclude every house on Crooked Street. There is a resolution from the Town of Glenville that I have seen that was written to the Town Board. It would be to the Town Board because the contract is with the Town. The tank has been moved to the side of a lot along the road. I think the tank is less than 28 feet tall. It is protected by a berm. We presented it to the Planning Board with the berm and trees on it. They gave us the direction they wanted us to follow. Basically, the tank will hardly be seen.
Kevin Stone - Charlton Road - Mr. Zee said that the storage facility would be for 50,000 gallons. How many lots is that accounting for? When you add that to the current storage capacity of the town, how many residences will that capacity account for?
Jim Mitchell - About 200 services.
Kevin Stone - So 50,000 gallons is enough for 200 services. If you add to the 49 currently planned, that is enough for 200 services. Does that not give capacity for another 150 services that are outside of the development?
Jim Mitchell - That is correct.
Bob Killeen - How recent is the resolution from the Town of Glenville to sell water to this development? Is it 9 years old or is it a recent resolution?
Supervisor Acunto - That is a good question because I have not seen what Mr. Burns is talking about.
Councilman Schroeder - From what I am aware of, we have no contract from the Town of Glenville with the Town Board to provide water.
Supervisor Acunto - Only when the original contract came in to provide water to the water district several years ago.
Jim Leupold - Edwin Drive - If a third party builds a storage tank, who owns it and maintains it? Does it become property of the town?
Supervisor Acunto - What normally happens is the district is built by and individual or a group of people and then it is turned over to the town for $1.00 and then the town owns it.
Jim Leupold - Is there a reason why there is nobody here tonight from the Planning Board?
Supervisor Acunto - I don't see a Planning Board member here. Steve Caine and Connie Wood stated that they were present.
Jim Leupold - There were a lot of points that were brought up that you kept saying, "But we don't have anybody here from the Planning Board". If they would address the questions while everybody is here, it seems like it would alleviate a lot of problems.
Supervisor Acunto - Does anybody wish to address a question to the Planning Board?
Joe Marchesiello - Crooked Street - I spoke to Connie this week and she told me she didn't know a lot about this subject. Tonight I hear things were discussed with the Planning Board.
Connie Wood - I did tell you there would be a berm, a fence and landscaping (trees or whatever) around the tank.
Steve Caine - The Planning Board's role is rather finite. It is to look at it through the eyes (could not understand) SEQR where you are looking at the environmental impact of the facilities that were suggested. It is not the Planning Board's role (could not understand) to listen to the technical presentation and then look at environmental safety, whether the water will be delivered, whether the water system is sufficient, etc. It is not to collect the feelings of the local folks about water. It is to look at it from purely a very practical aspect such as whether the firemen can get in there to take care of things. That is the role of the Planning Board. It feeds into a larger process which is part of why we are all here tonight. We can tell the Town that technically what we have dealt with is OK.
Joe Marchesiello - I was disappointed because I couldn't find much information about this prior to tonight.
Steve Caine - There were open meetings prior to tonight that anybody could have attended.
Connie Wood - The extension of the water district, as I explained to you, is something that the Planning Board has no power in at all. That is totally at the Town Board's discretion.
Eileen Stone - Charlton Road - You said 29 buildings lots were approved in the first phase.
Supervisor Acunto - 25
Eileen Stone - Was it subject to the extension of the water district?
Supervisor Acunto - Yes.
Eileen Stone - What they are proposing, is this an extension within the district or is it to take care of themselves and provide their own water capabilities? Are you calling what the developers are proposing an extension of the water district?
Supervisor Acunto - It would be an extension.
Eileen Stone - You are proposing a tank that has a capacity of 50,000 gallons a day. They would only use 30% of that. There would be about 150 houses that could be hooked up. You have a wonderful opportunity here to have a win, win solution with the developer. I think they will do a fine job. You have a great opportunity here. There are a lot of people who are not in the water district that would like to get in the district. People who have been paying into the water district would have that option and there are people like ourselves that have just moved in, unable to connect, but would like to be in the water district. In terms of your process here, I don't know how long you have been talking about this but my husband and I were at the May/June board meeting and it was talked about a moratorium. This is a very small town. You care about your people. People are here because they care. It just seems to me ridiculous that you are not studying this with the developer at the same time you have a lot of people in the town that also want to get on the water. I do think it is a hardship with a finite water supply and drought conditions. People want to get off their well water. Water is becoming a scarce resource. It needs to be treated very carefully. If you come up with a win, win solution very quickly that wouldn't put the developer too much on a delay then, also you could help the people who want to get hooked up and work it out with Glenville. I strongly urge, as far as the referendum, that you delay this, that you have the people (could not understand) proper moratorium period that you could work out something with the developer (could not understand) with the people that want to get on. I think you might be able to come up with (could not understand). It would be a terrible situation if you let that opportunity pass. That is a good way for the developer to work with the community. They get their piece of business done and the community grows and is elevated.
Dale Delano - Meadowbrook Lane - If that tank is 28 feet high, will that give enough pressure to the residents down there and have no effect at all to our residents here?
Jim Mitchell - The tank is basically there to augment the larger tank that pumps water (could not understand). There is a pump associated with the tank.
Resident - Crooked Street - I was here a couple of years ago and at that time there were a couple of other proposed developments on or around Crooked Street. There was a 6-lot development on the south side of Crooked Street. There was also a 17-lot development at the intersection of Crooked Street and Swaggertown. What is the status of those?
Connie Wood - The 6 lots have been approved but no building permits have been issued. The 17-lot subdivision has not been approved. That is across Swaggertown Road. That requires water.
Resident - Why is this moratorium only for one year?
Supervisor Acunto - The moratorium was suggested, the board discussed it and felt that we needed to get our hands around this whole topic that you are hearing. We said a year. That does not mean it will take a full year. It could be six months. We will study our needs as to what we should be doing about storage facilities, if there is a need to expand, where do we expand, etc. If we can come up with a solution in less than a year then the moratorium will end. If it needs to be extended, I guess we enact another local law. Is that correct Mr. VanVranken?
Mr. VanVranken - I think with a moratorium, the case law indicates that a year is about the maximum limit that you can stop performing a governmental service. In this case, it's the accepting of processing of applications for water districts or water district extensions. If there were, for instance, no moratorium in place, applications would then come before this board and be processed according to the applicable sections of the town law. A moratorium can apply to water district extensions, cell towers, or other matters. Again, the general time the courts have said is reasonable for a town to basically put on the shelf it's governmental duty is up to but no longer than a year unless there are extraordinary circumstances.
Mark Syzdek - Crooked Street - John has my time.
John Simoni - I am amazed at the dollars involved here. $600,000 here and $600,000 there. You begin to wonder what this whole thing is about. We throw around $1,200,000.00 like it was nothing. Mr. Zee, you talked about the number 49. I'm confused too. I thought you just said it was 25 but he keeps talking 49. I know where he's going. He is going for 49. This is the start. There is no question in my mind. Mr. Heflin is here tonight. I know why he is here. He wants to see this happen. That is why he relinquished his time. He wants to put 17 houses across the road. Let's start thinking about this town. We've heard talk about 49 houses, 17 houses, some going down Swaggertown Road. With 49 houses you have 100 cars coming out of there. I can tell you again, it is a negative impact. Too fast of a growth is a negative impact. We will loose our community the way it is and become another Halfmoon or Clifton Park. We want a slow planned growth. It is very, very important. Mr. Zee pointed out two documents. One I am familiar with. It is the Planning Board plot plan. I again ask the question of this board to research it. I cannot get, Mr. St. John has them, the minutes that authorized him to sign that plot plan. I can't find them. Mr. Zee doesn't have them, I don't think. He held up a document that the Planning Board Chairman signed but not that the Planning Board said that it was OK for him to sign those papers. That is the missing link. It might be there. I would love to see it. Mr. Grattidge, back to the conflict of interest. I would like to see you address that. We aren't talking about your contracts with Mr. Bordeau. We are talking about also your contracts with all the homeowners in there that you might be doing work for. That would be a conflict of interest. Let's keep it straight and honest and above board.
Councilman Grattidge - Maybe you could sell them office supplies.
John Simoni - I'm not voting on this issue. You are the one that is voting on this issue. If you have a conflict, you should recluse yourself from voting. The meeting notice---You brought up why wasn't the Planning Board here. They weren't notified by the board that the meeting was changed. You didn't notify the Environmental Commission, the ZBA or Planning Board. You changed the meeting to Tuesday night without advising the people that you want here. They wouldn't have been here tonight unless they got a notice from the Committee That Wants To Preserve Charlton.
Mitch Brodsky - Hillandale Drive - You have a supply tank of 50,000 gallons. If somebody puts in a swimming pool they will use 10,000 -15,000 gallons right off the bat. If you have four of those swimming pools, you consume the capacity of the tank.
Jim Mitchell - The entire system is tied into a grid. It is supposed to pump out of the 50,000 tank and into the grid (could not understand).
Mitch Brodsky - Will Glenville put up with that?
Jim Mitchell - Yes. Their requirement is that the town has to be able to store (could not understand).
Susan York - Cortland Drive - I want to know how Crooked Street and lower Stage Road are going to handle all this additional traffic.
Paul St. John - The Planning Board did do a traffic study way back when. It shows what the impact is. There was a 20-minute period around 7 or 8 in the morning and another 20 or 30 minute period in the evening. That was the only time the traffic builds up. To answer the question about planned growth, the Town of Charlton since 1980 has been 4,000 plus or minus 20 people. The actual total growth in the Town of Charlton, if you look at the last census, has been negative by a small amount.
Resident - We are all for that.
Dave Mesh - Komar Drive - I don't think we should develop that property with the idea that if getting 50 homes means getting us water. It is the wrong way of going about it.
Jim Leupold - What is the process by which a developer comes in and looks to develop a piece of property? It almost seems like the cart is going before the horse where nobody looked at what the water situation potentially could have been. We let the developer go ahead and buy the land and tried to get the ball rolling in terms of getting it developed, then all of a sudden somebody wakes up and says we may have a water problem here. Now we want to have a moratorium for everybody else but not the developer. Why wasn't this taken into consideration prior to even getting the development to the point of where they are now in the development process?
Connie Wood - Water is a total Town Board issue. The developer has to come to us for the layout of the development, the SEQR process, etc.
Jim Leupold - So what process happens first? Who says yes first and then says yes second and third and fourth? How does that work in terms of a developer coming in and wanting to develop land? She is saying, apparently they give approval but water has nothing to do with them. They just say yes it can be done or it can't be done. Then at some point water has to be considered but apparently it wasn't considered at some point.
Supervisor Acunto - In that situation in that particular subdivision, the Planning Board approved the subdivision and then they filed the map. I can't answer the question from a legal standpoint. It was filed with the county and then it was discovered, and this was long before anybody on this board sat here, that they did not have approval for water. Normally they go hand in hand. The approval of the subdivision goes with the approval of the water extension. It did not happen in this case.
Jim Leupold - So there is no approval for water for that development.
Supervisor Acunto - That's correct.
Jim Leupold - If that is the case, why would you want to exclude them from this moratorium? If they don't even have a legal right to it because there is nothing written anywhere, what would be the purpose, in terms of protecting the town, that any of you would vote in favor of something like this that would exclude them?
Supervisor Acunto - The Board's feeling was that this developer has invested a great deal of money. They have talked to attorneys, our attorneys, our engineers, our Planning Board and it would not be appropriate to turn them away and say your not going to do anything for a year. The Board felt to keep them excluded so they could continue the process. There would be no guarantee that it is going to happen. As I said earlier in the meeting, we have not given any approval because we haven't held a hearing yet on that particular subdivision for a water extension. The Board's feeling was not to shut them off and say you have to wait until the moratorium is over to proceed with what you have already been proceeding with.
Jim Leupold - But how is that in the best interest of the community? It seems like you guys are really bent on the siding with them.
Supervisor Acunto - I don't know how you arrived at that conclusion.
Jim Leupold - Take that piece out and go ahead with the moratorium and include them in on it and then that would be a true sign that you are for the community and for the people of Charlton. It just makes sense to me. What is another year if they have already waited 12 years to develop the property? What's the reason why they can't wait another year?
Councilman Schroeder - When the resolution comes up it is only coming on the table for a vote. We can still opt not to approve that resolution. We are hearing a lot of input from residents of the town. We are hearing a lot of input from people that are involved. We don't have to vote on that tonight. We can have more discussion and we can say we are going to table it. That resolution is just a proposal that the supervisor wrote. It still has to be voted on.
Jim Leupold - Typically people don't write resolutions unless you are going to vote on it. Why would you write something like this unless you were going to go ahead and vote this way?
Supervisor Acunto - We held a public hearing on this issue as a local law. What is going to be voted on was tabled until tonight following all of the legal practices, a published public hearing, etc.
Jim Leupold - Right now you are saying that there is no legal document that says that the water extension is granted to them. There is nothing written.
Supervisor Acunto - No.
Councilman Schroeder - As far as I know we don't have an application for such.
Eileen Stone - We just bought a home on Charlton Road. Before we bought the house we had contacted the Town Board to get a sense of what it was going to cost (could not understand) to find out if there was any issue with getting water. We had not started the application process but there was no indication that there would be a problem with getting water. We actually didn't know that there was an application process. You need to get a lot more thorough with your information that you put out to people. I am just trying to make a comparison. I am being asked to wait (could not understand) but let's study the issue together so the developer gets what they need and the people of Charlton also get what they need. It is ridiculous that there is an exemption. We have all spent money and everyone should be treated similarly. Is it your decision not to vote on this tonight or how can we, the people, get involved to indicate that we would like to have this law be changed?
Councilman Schroeder - We are hearing it loud and clear.
Supervisor Acunto - The tentative plan is, if this local law is adopted, a study committee will be formed.
Eileen Stone - I'd like to know how it could be prevented. I do not want to see this law signed tonight. I think it is wrong. I think it is very wrong and I don't think you'd want to see it in the local papers. You should not be having an exemption for one big party that has money and some other benefits. I have nothing against builders but this is wrong. There is no reason why you cannot study this issue quickly. I would also like to know how we can prevent this from being stopped tonight besides your good conscious. How can we, the people, affect that? I'd like to know.
Supervisor Acunto - When it comes up for consideration, the board will decide what they want to do.
Eileen Stone - So it is totally in your hands now and you are just trying to get some feedback on enacting this law. Is that correct?
Supervisor Acunto - Basically.
Eileen Stone - You will decide whether or not to enact it based on people's responses. Other than that we don't have any other input except to tell you how we feel.
Supervisor Acunto - Correct.
Councilman Schroeder - You've done it.
Eileen Stone - The second point is, I'd like to know why it hasn't been considered that the developer hold the rights to all that storage. Again, what I am proposing is a win, win solution to solving the communities problems and the developers at the same time.
Councilman Lippiello - If the system is passed and is installed, it will become part of the town water district. It will become town property.
Eileen Stone - So if it is an extension of the water district, I really don't see why you need a moratorium to get a possible solution that can address both the developer and the community. Why don't we focus on that issue and solve the problem at hand. You don't need a year moratorium for that. You have a possible solution. With this tank, you have 150 extra homes that could be served. That would address your community needs.
Councilman Lippiello - I am confused in the direction you are going.
Eileen Stone -I think this law should not be enacted. Second, when you are trying to solve the problem, which is the developers in the community, you have a possible solution here that the developer is willing to build something to help you solve the problem. Why can't you solve both problems at once and have the moratorium encompass both. I don't think there should be an exemption.
Mr. Zee - My client is willing to pay because they are under contract to purchase the property and we have expended quite a bit of money. Truthfully, my client doesn't want to spend the extra $200,000.00 or $1000,000.00 that would necessitate to pay for the extra water tower with capacity. If there is this moratorium and then the solution of the town is that they verify that they are probably in violation of Glenville's Ordinance with regard to water storage and with regard to DEC and (could not understand) then it is a matter of public record and the town is obligated to fix this current situation. I don't want to make it a threat or anything I just want to state (could not understand). What I hear from you is you want to have water available to you because it would be beneficial to you and potentially other residents of the town. As one of the gentlemen indicated, if we build a 50,000-gallon water facility, we own that facility. We don't own the capacity. The extra water capacity that is created by the storage facility is owned by the town and can be given to anybody in the town who properly applies and goes through the process that we are going through the process of. I believe there are residents here who are speaking tonight who do not want the extra storage capacity because they are of the position that you leave Charlton as it is right now and if certain groups don't have water, unless everybody wanted to ante up, it isn't going to happen. If you want to pay for the additional water capacity and increase your bills, that is part of your options. We are here tonight because we believe we have a vested right to come before this board without a moratorium, a legal vested right based on the fact that there is an approved subdivision, based on the fact that we have had numerous communications/dialogues, in effect a grievance by way of letters with regard to the processes my client has had to go as well as the predecessor developer had to go by way of the monies we have put up in escrow to review these (could not understand) allowed to go to the next step on a current basis . The board I believe is correct in exempting this project from the moratorium as it has been done in other communities when projects have reached a certain level where they have gotten certain approvals. In this case, we had a SEQR determination which took at least three meetings with this town Planning Board, which is a matter of public record. It was a public Planning Board Meeting which was attended by some residents. They had some questions at those meetings. We went through the process and it was circulated to all of the interested and involved agencies to find out whether the Town Board, DEC, DOH, County of Saratoga or the Planning Board wanted to be the lead agency for that project. We had to wait at least 60 days for the Planning Board to vote on the matter.
Supervisor Acunto - Mr. Zee, I think you have answered the question.
Jeff Guido - I tried to purchase a lot on Old Stage Road. What determines whether water was pre-approved for a subdivision?
Supervisor Acunto - I'm not sure where you are talking about.
Resident - Murrays.
Connie Wood - That was approved without water.
Supervisor Acunto - It is not in the water district so it was approved without.
Jeff Guido - Do you have to ask to apply application wise?
Supervisor Acunto - That is what we are trying to get our hands around by studying this moratorium. Should we enlarge the district? Can we enlarge the district? That is what we need time to work on.
Jeff Guido - I have been trying to work this out since May to try and get water that runs right in front of this lot and I keep getting told, "No, we can't".
Supervisor Acunto - It's not in the water district. We have maxed out our capacity. The board is not approving any extension to the water district unless there is a definite hardship.
Jeff Guido - I was told you just extended three or four lots just in the past month. Is that correct?
Supervisor Acunto - No.
Councilman Lippiello - The exclusions in the local law, there are three of them. One is there. One is on Vines and Swaggertown. In both cases last fall these people approached us and asked us about the feasibility of hooking into the water system. We spoke to them, gave them the information they needed and told them that that was available to them. Neither group was able to accomplish it in the fall because of a shutdown of the digging season. They are proceeding and they have been excluded. It is very similar, in my thinking, to the developer's situation. We have processed with them for years. We have been in the process of leading to the water situation and want to give them the permission to continue that process. What we need to do in this year is to sit down and look at, not just supply, but we need to look at procedures the water district uses. Those need to be revised. For future extensions, we need to sit down and write hard and cold details as to the process of applying and the process of hooking up. The moratorium is an attempt to give us a year to get a handle on this thing. The three exemptions are processed applications that have been in process since last fall and obviously beyond. That is why they are excluded. They are not new.
Jeff Guido - You didn't say there was some time line that you had to have an application in before you would accept a water application. There was no moratorium in September or November.
Councilman Lippiello - There was no moratorium when they were given permission to hook up and there was no moratorium when the developer was working with the engineer trying to get specs. right for theirs. For the last three months we have accepted no additional applications.
Resident - Who will conduct the study? Will the Town Board conduct it? Will the Planning Committee conduct it? Will the Zoning Board conduct it?
Supervisor Acunto - It is yet to be determined. I hope it will be made up of members of all those groups that you just mentioned.
Resident - How many people that are here have had a water line running across their property in front of their house for a while with an existing hope that one day they will hook into the water system?
Supervisor Acunto - I have no idea.
Resident - So for those that have water lines across their property, is there any reason that they can't hook in right now?
Councilman Grattidge - If they're in the district they are allowed to hook in.
Resident - What do you mean if they are in the district? I would think they would be in the district if the line is running across their property.
Councilman Grattidge - There are some situations that the line ran in front of property that weren't included in this water district when it was originally formed.
Resident - For that reason they can't hook up now?
Councilman Grattidge - Right.
Resident - That's an outrage.
Dean Durst - Swaggertown Road - (Could not understand) As far as the water storage issue goes, I know Gary Heflin is sitting over there and also Mr. Zee representing Gary Bordeau. The town also has a vested interest in putting in more storage capacity. I think part of the issue is, if the town and the developers will work together, it is not rocket science. It is very easy math to figure out how much more storage capacity you need. It is a matter of sizing the pipes. It is a matter of (could not understand). It is very easy to solve the entire situation (could not understand). The extension of the water district will enable more people to have water in their homes. (Could not understand) I live adjacent to the 17-lot subdivision where Gary Heflin is. (Could not understand) It's not going to rampant growth and development like Clifton Park. We have zoning ordinances that dictate what size lots we can have and what kind of density we can have. That is going to keep us from having the subdivisions like Gary Bordeau is putting in. It was forced on him to have 1/2 acre lots with high density by the town. (Could not understand)
Supervisor Acunto read a letter from Dean Durst stating his outrage at the anonymous flyer that went to residents of the water district and the misinformation that he felt it contained. He stated that the proposed extension of the water to the Bordeau and Heflin subdivisions would be paid for by the builders. He encouraged the town to draw together and use town talent to solve current water district controversy. He would rather see a one shot solution than a piece-meal approach. He would like to see the wording of the proposed moratorium changed to read, "for not more than one year" rather than proposing a one-year time frame.
John Simoni - May I ask what Mr. Durst occupation is?
Dean Durst - A developer.
Kevin Stone - I would like to add to the essential recommendation that Mr. Durst provided that somehow this law be reworded, if it is to be considered, reworded in such a way that it ties the solution and the two issues together. If there is to be a moratorium, I agree with the suggestion that it be modified to "not more than one year" and in such a way that the two problems are solved together. If anyone has to wait, we all wait together but if we solve the problem together, sooner, we all move forward together sooner.
Bob Killeen - What builder has provided water?
Dean Durst - Historically in most towns, the builders put in the water supply and the pump stations and turns it over to the town.
Resident - Clifton Park is having a lot of problems right now.
Eileen Stone - (Could not understand)
Supervisor Acunto - When you say the attorneys for Bordeau, I met Mr. Zee tonight for the first time. I've never talked to him before in my life.
Eileen Stone - He implied that there is some pressure being put on you. At least that was my interpretation of what he said.
Mr. Zee - I never said that at all. What I said was we have a legal vested right to move forward at this point in time because of all legal steps that we have taken and all the technical information that has been provided pursuant to discussions that had been had, not with my office, but with the previous developer, the engineering firms and the town.
Eileen Stone - And I appreciate that but what brought me to the interpretation was that you made a point that we were not in compliance with law.
Mr. Zee - Because you are not.
Eileen Stone - What does that have to do with you?
Mr. Zee - What does it have to do with me? What I am saying is Capital Real Estate pays taxes on the lots that it owns.
Eileen Stone - The lots without water rights.
Paul St. John - Yes they do. (Could not understand) the lawyers of Capital Realty and a third set of lawyers. They came together in one agreement (could not understand) So yes there is some legal precedence (could not understand) I would have to go back and look at the total agreement but there was a legal agreement signed by all the parties (could not understand).
Bob Snyder - Crestwood Drive - The Planning Board says they do not approve. Approval seems to imply that there is a visual thing going that they see this as a good thing. It's not a technical analysis. They will either say it is technical or it is not. So I am confused with that.
Supervisor Acunto - The Planning Board, I believe under Mr. St. John's chairmanship, signed the mylar approving the subdivision.
Councilman Grattidge - Without water.
Bob Snyder - (Could not understand)
Supervisor Acunto - That is a Planning Board function to approve subdivisions, by law and not the Town Board. That Planning Board approved that subdivision by signing it and having it filed at the County Clerk's Office. Mr. VanVranken is that correct?
Mr. Zee- The document signed by Mr. St. John specifically discusses water lines. It is in paragraph 4. It specifically says all public improvements and roadways except for top (could not understand) on the roadway will require a bond in the amount of $30,000.00. Water line and drainage improvements located in Phase I must be completed prior to the issuance of any building permits. So water was, in fact, specifically discussed and addressed and it is in the document dated December of 1993 signed by Capital Real Estate, Al Friedman and the Town of Charlton.
John Simoni - Town Board (could not understand) water rights. You know that.
Eileen Stone - It's not a right, it's just an infrastructure.
Councilman Schroeder - The Town Board has not granted water.
Bob Snyder - I agree with my neighbors up on Charlton Road, the changing of the verbiage of "up to a year". I definitely think that this, as it stands, is exclusionary to the other persons in the Town of Charlton that want to deal with a similar fate. This gives them a beneficial right and excludes everybody else that is here now.
Jim Leupold - I would like to know who represented the town in the signature. All you said was the name of the developer but you never said who the name was of the town.
Someone- Mr. St. John
Jim Leupold - But he wasn't on the Town Board.
Supervisor Acunto -He was the Chairman of the Planning Board at that time.
Jim Leupold - But isn't it up to a representative of the Town Board to sign it in order for it to be a legal document?
Supervisor Acunto - No.
Jim Leupold - I asked the question earlier if there was a legal document that gives them water rights and you said, "No there is not".
Councilman Schroeder - You are correct. There are no water rights included. The subdivision was approved by the Planning Board. Not the water. The water was not included.
Jim Leupold - (could not understand) making it look like water is a part of this.
Paul St. John - Water up to that point, if you go through the records and go through all the documents that we have from Glenville, if you go through all of the hearings and everything that was presented for that subdivision, they approved that there would be water for that subdivision. It is up to the Town Board to grant the water. I am saying to you that up to that point that there was water approved. Is it up to the Town Board to approve the water? Yes. (Could not understand) they have complied with all the SEQR regulations, all the DEC requirements, DOH, etc. It is now in the Town Board's court.
Jim Leupold - When we originally got the water tower and we got public water into the system, was it adequate back when it was built?
Paul St. John (?) - Yes. There were only about 400 homes in the whole system.
Jim Leupold - And how many are in there now?
Supervisor Acunto - 560.
Jim Leupold - We are already over our limit.
Supervisor Acunto - Our capacity. Yes.
Councilman Lippiello - The state requires you to hold one day's supply for members of the water district. According to our last set of numbers, we were pushing through about 157,000 gallons on an average day.
Jim Leupold - Is that a result of the fact that we allowed development over existing property to keep adding to it in ones and twos instead of big lots of 49 and all of a sudden we got to the point where we are now where we are over capacity?
Supervisor Acunto - That's a fair description.
Jim Leupold - If we allow them the exemption and if they continue to go ahead with whatever plan they want to do as far as this facility, it is going to make a big impact in your study, whether or not it is in there? You can't look at a problem while somebody is trying to fix it, is what I am getting at. If you have somebody over here trying to work on a plan to correct the problem and you have another group of people looking at in terms of its entirety, to me that is a conflict. You should just stop everything, look at the problem, come up with a realistic approach, present it to everybody and then move from there.
Councilman Schroeder - I just want to clarify. There were a couple of questions about application processes that you had asked. Yes, you have to apply to get water whether you are in the district or you want to create a new extension of the water district. The water extensions that are potentially going to be voted on tonight in that resolution, there are no formal applications. Either I misunderstood, Bob, or perhaps you misspoke. There are no formal applications for people that are included in those exemptions.
Jim Leupold - If they haven't even formally applied for the water, why would you want to give them an exemption?
Mr. Zee - We have filed a map plan and report which is a technical analysis of what the water district is to incorporate and the technical hardware of everything. Prior to my involvement and Bordeau Builders being involved, there were communications with the town and the owners. In there there was an outline of the processes that needed to be taken. Included in that process was that there had to be a technical report to be reviewed by the town attorney, the town board and the town engineer before we could go forward and meet with the Planning Board to look at the potential layout of the water facility at the Planning Board level. It took some time because the property owners first proposed to put the water facility near the existing water tower. The town board thought that was not an appropriate place. We then proposed to put it in a certain location. The town board, from an engineering standpoint, felt that that was not an appropriate place. On our third try we put it on Lot #1 of the approved subdivision as shown on the filed maps. There was dialog with how much extra capacity was wanted by the municipality for the benefit of the town at the developer's expense. We agreed to that and we went on to the Planning Board level because we were authorized by the town, at that time, to go forward pursuant to letters that go back to 1999. We had at least two meetings that I was present at. One was on April 15, 2002. After that meeting I wrote a letter to the Planning Board chairperson to try to confirm what was discussed with regard to the landscaping around this water facility. At that point in time it was my understanding that we would be required, if it were to be approved by the town board, because we would still have to go to the town board, a 6 foot berm around the facility with at least a 2 1/2 to 1 slope, a mixture of evergreen, deciduous trees and shrubs, a fence and driveway to the structure. After that it was then forwarded back to the town board where the town board's special council prepared a petition. We received the petition just over a week ago. It has been signed by Capital Real Estate for all of the lots but because the town board or the town engineer, to avoid the issue of having transmission lines going past existing homes and not being in the district, requested that we include those houses that we would be going by on Crooked Street to be included in the district. Gary Bordeau got all the names of the people, there were 13, and we have since circulated that petition to those 13 landowners to avoid unfairness.
Janet Reville - We can talk later but you have missed a few, sir. I was part of getting these flyers out. I was by no means trying to be sneaky about it. My intent was to get people involved and I think as people representing us you should be pleased that we've got such a turn out of interested parties, pro and con, for this whole issue.
Steve Caine - If somebody puts something in my mailbox, I would like to know who sent it. I get the feeling we are going to go one or two ways and the purpose of this meeting is to hear people's opinions. One being giving an exemption to this development for water and let the process go on and the other is we're not and have the whole town under a moratorium. I'd like to know what each of these branches means in terms of what the town will do as far as researching the issues and what effect will it have on the timeline of the total process. Is that clear? In the proposal to exempt them from the moratorium, certain things will be studied and information will get forwarded to the town board and then they will make a decision whether to extend the water district. The other option I heard tonight was people saying everybody should be treated the same and everybody should go under the moratorium. I want to know what the difference is in the research the town is going to do under those two different scenarios?
Supervisor Acunto - If we got a moratorium, forget about exclusions and inclusions, we would have time to study the entire water issue capacity and where we are going to go. We have some real technical issues that have been pretty loose over the years in procedure. Who is going to be in that study group? As it was said tonight, I think it would be a portion of the Planning Board and the ZBA. That is one direction. The issue now arises of who should be excluded and who should not be? Councilman Lippiello explained the issue of the two particular residences on Vines Road. They had a definite hardship. They were involved in discussions last year and then the weather closed on them. The board felt that they should be excluded from any moratorium. The same issue arouse with the Capital Realty subdivision exclusion based on all you have heard about the time, the scenario of events that have taken place over the years to try to come to the point to ask for a water extension. I'd like to hear from other board members if they don't agree with my interpretation.
Steve Caine - What I am really interested in is there is going to be an analysis of Charlton's water capacity, further demands with or without the 49-house development. I want to know if that analysis will include whether or not they are exempted or not, whether there is a year moratorium or not, that analysis is the same in both of those different branches is it not? If you are going to give them an exemption because of all the things that have gone on, to answer whether they can get water is going to generate an analysis of certain items. It's the same analysis you're really going to do of the whole town on a bigger scope. You're going to do it all at the same time aren't you?
Councilman Grattidge - Right. I think it is obvious if their project comes up and depending on which way it goes is going to depend on how we are going to be able to handle the rest of the town. The two are related.
Dean Durst - I would think that if it is exempted and Bordeau starts to build the infrastructure and gets the roads and the waterlines in to the point of getting the water storage facility, perhaps the town can look at using that (could not understand)
Supervisor Acunto - I think there is a sense out there that if we exempt Bordeau in this that that is a back door approval to a water extension. That is absolutely false. There is no guarantee, if this moratorium goes in, that there is going to be an approval for water. That has not been presented to this board. We cannot even technically discuss it because there hasn't been a public hearing. There will be a public hearing. I think you have to be careful on how you say things, Dean. The moratorium exclusion has in no way an approval of a water extension. I will make that as clear as I can make it. They don't run together.
Councilman Schroeder - Whether they are excluded or if the moratorium went for the entire town it doesn't hold up any process for anybody. Anybody can still come in and put things in place, we just have the study going on at the same time. Even if we were to forget all the exemptions, we can still put the moratorium in and still do our study and people can still move ahead. We have a hardship clause built into it.
Resident - If they have exemptions then they would have the go ahead to make all the infrastructure. For what?
Supervisor Acunto - No. They would still have to go through the process.
Resident - Then why would you exempt them? You don't have to exempt them. Is that correct?
Councilman Schroeder - Pretty much. That is how I am reading it. We don't have to exempt anybody. They can still go through the process. Yes. You are correct, I believe.
Supervisor Acunto - I defer to council.
Bob VanVranken - The intent of the moratorium is to stop accepting consideration of any water district extension for the period of time of the moratorium. In this case, up to or at least one year, according to the current language. The exemption relates only to the right of the applicant to process the application through the Town Board for approval of the particular extension of the water district. Is that clear? What is not clear? If it was a general moratorium then no applications could be considered by this board subject to the hardship clause. If someone comes in and says that I have been out of water for a year, can you run a line down the street and hook me up? The Town Board wants to reserve the right because legally this government has an obligation to you folks. That's the general moratorium. No exemptions. Everybody comes under it. No water district. Come back in a year and see us. The proposed legislation says there is moratorium on everyone except the two individual homes that Bob talked about and the Bordeau subdivision as to the processing of the application for approval by the Town Board. So let's assume that the Town Board approves the moratorium as presented tonight. What can Bordeau do with respect to the water system over there? Nothing. He can't do a thing. The subdivision is not going to be able to be processed until they then apply to the Town Board. That process happens to be through Article 12 of the Town Law, an application through this board as to whether or not the extension that they are proposing would be approved. What happens there? There are two pieces to that. One is the Town Board says "yes", then a lot of the data that you have hear tonight as presented would, in all probability, be granted and that extension would move forward. If the Town Board says "no", end of story. So the Town Board doesn't give any rights via the Bordeau partnership tonight by way of this moratorium.
Eileen Stone - If the board is going to approve it, this is such a large issue, don't you need to do the analysis regardless of the events that went on? You need to do the analysis in order to approve this.
Councilman Grattidge - Some of the engineering background is what has been leading up to this point. This is why the storage facility came up in the first place.
Eileen Stone - You are studying their half and then you would have to still come back and do more work on the second half which is the whole town? Why are they separated? It is only going to take two months to do it together. Pay their engineers a little bit more money.
Supervisor Acunto - They pay for everything. We pay nothing.
Eileen Stone - You have the opportunity here in two months to get it done. Get them on line. They have been waiting patiently ready to go. You have everything in place. Do it together. I don't understand why you can't do it together.
Supervisor Acunto - You are suggesting two months. That is a window of time. With a moratorium that says, "up to a year", it does not have to be a year. It may take two months or three months.
Eileen Stone - Are you saying, when you do the analysis with your engineers, you are going to do it for both the Bordeau property plus the whole town and you are doing all the engineering analysis together and then after you do the analysis, even though they have gotten their paperwork done, it won't get approved, literally, until the analysis is done and we have a program for developing a future (could not understand) I am just trying to understand the process here.
Councilman Schroeder - We need the study for the whole town and we need to particularly look at that.
Eileen Stone - So that process is going to start.
Councilman Schroeder - The process to look at the whole big picture is about to start. With Bordeau as part of it.
Eileen Stone- Then you will go through this process. They have a proposal of a solution that they are offering and you are going to see if that solution works from an engineering standpoint?
Councilman Schroeder - We need to deal with our engineer and we need to deal with their engineer. We as a Town Board, there will be five votes to make the decision, need to look at the big picture and we need to look at the small parts of the picture and put all the information together first before we can make a reasonable decision.
Eileen Stone - The only thing you are missing from that solution, if you are really studying the town, is to know who wants to connect. If you are trying to study a capacity issue and solve the problem, and they are proposing to solve the problem, then why not get all the applicants so you know what is the meat of this issue. You're putting on a moratorium saying, "Don't apply". How can you study the problem?
Councilman Lippiello - We can't force people to apply.
Councilman Schroeder - And we don't have applications. Because we are putting on a moratorium doesn't mean the process stops. We put the moratorium so there isn't anything going on until we study the problem.
Eileen Stone - You should be soliciting from the community who wants to connect to the water. We need to know how many future users (could not understand) so you know what their needs are and then you know whoever else wants to connect, whether or not it is on Charlton Road or somewhere else and figure out what is the next phase. You need that information in order to do your study is what I am saying. Right?
Councilman Schroeder - And what I am hearing is that we need to look at the entire picture and where we are going with it. Yes.
Eileen Stone - (Could not understand)
Councilman Schroeder - No we do not have that right now.
Councilman Lippiello - I assume that would be an aspect that the committee would look at but it is difficult to anticipate down the road that five years from now the guy who owns that 18 acres down there would like to build houses.
Eileen Stone - But you are trying to talk about a program to build to the next phase and you have to do your best efforts of how you are going to get the data for the next phase.
Mr. Zee - I think what you are missing is it won't be a two month process because when you go to a moratorium the board is going to have to appoint some people. By the time they pick the people for the board and they consent to it, you are talking about a minimum of 30-45 days before that board is even convened. You are going to then have to look at the technical aspects of the engineering and before you can even do that I think that there is an obligation by the municipality, unless (could not understand) go out to bid the project for the engineers and then you have to get specific specifications out for what to contract (could not understand). You are talking about two months. It will take a period of time and during that period of time, my client is not obligated in any way to spend any extra money or to give any additional resources.
Supervisor Acunto - I think we know how we are going to handle that.
Jonathan Kemp - Beechwood Drive - Is any more discussion going to change your vote? If it isn't, why don't you end the discussion?
At this time Councilman Schroeder made a motion to modify the agenda for the meeting and move the vote from it's current place near the end of the agenda and vote on the proposed resolution to adopt Local Law #3 of 2002 at this time.
Motion made by Councilman Lippiello, seconded by Councilman Grattidge that Resolution #84, A RESOLUTION TO ADOPT LOCAL LAW #3 OF 2002, A LOCAL LAW IMPOSING A ONE YEAR MORATORIUM ON EXPANSION OF THE EXISTING WATER SERVICE WITHIN THE TOWN OF CHARLTON, be approved:
Councilman Schroeder - We have heard a lot of input from the people who decide who sits at this table. A lot of very, very valid points. Perhaps we didn't give adequate notification. That is enough reason for me. We don't have applications for these exemptions that we are making. I don't oppose the moratorium. I think we need the moratorium so that we can do exactly what we are hearing from every side tonight. There was a question early on about a public referendum. From a board' standpoint, I think we need a lot more discussion on the wording of this anyway. At the bear minimum, we would have to change "not to exceed a year" and correct the wording on the 49 houses. As it is written there is no way I could vote for it. What is written in there we already know we need to make some modifications to?
Councilman Lippiello - It is a one-year moratorium.
Councilman Schroeder - That part, no problem.
Councilman Grattidge - And we could end it early.
Councilman Schroeder - That part, no problem.
Councilman Lippiello - We do have the option to give exceptions to people who are on a hardship.
Councilman Schroeder - That part I am on board with. If we cut out all the exemptions, right now, I'm on board. I think it is a great idea. Why don't we study it? With the exemptions in there, there are too many questions.
Councilman Grattidge - The exemptions are still leaving us flexible to vote on them on an individual basis. I don't see the exemptions restricting us in any way.
Councilman Schroeder - So then we wouldn't have to make any exemptions. We could moratorium everybody and make them come in with a hardship.
Supervisor Acunto - Say that again.
Councilman Schroeder - We can make a moratorium without exemptions so that it is fair for every single person and property owner in town and then as we are solving the problem processes can still happen.
Supervisor Acunto - Here is the problem we have. We would be up against it if we should get five applications. We are maxed out on storage. We would have to deny them without even accepting it. How can we say, "Yes, you can come on" if we don't have the storage.
Councilman Schroeder - We are open for discussion all the time on anything. Anyone can come to the Town Board.
Councilman Lippiello - May I ask counsel a question? If this resolution is written with no exceptions, can the process that Bordeau has been working through and working with our town engineer continue?
Bob VanVranken - Maybe. Here's the problem. Without the exceptions, if that is the direction you go, hardship is intended to be hardship and then you have the duty as a Town Board to address applications, post a non-exemption type of moratorium on an individual basis and determine what is and what isn't a hardship. If you read the language in there about hardship, hardship is, in my opinion, a fairly high standard. I disagree a little bit with Bernie's conclusion to the extent that if you pass a one-year moratorium without exceptions, I think that any applications are done unless you really have someone that has been seriously out of water, deprived of a benefit or whatever. If you go in that direction it would take an amendment to your local law, which you can do, by excluding the exceptions. You can do that. That is not a problem. If you do it, I think pretty much you are looking at whatever the time period is and you are going to be hard pressed to consider anything. Did I answer Bob's question?
Supervisor Acunto - No. If we removed the exclusion paragraph what impact does it have on the process that Capital Realty is going through?
Bob VanVranken - Let me give you the specifics. At this point in time they are not exempt which means you are in essence as a Town Board are saying, "You will no longer continue the process". What they would then have to do is come before you under the hardship exclusion and make some argument that they ought to be exempted by the hardship rather than exempted as part of the resolution that is approved. That puts a lot of pressure on you to decide if this 25-lot subdivision is a hardship within the meaning of your resolution. I think it causes you a more challenging decision than even tonights.
Councilman Mitchell - I guess with all that I have heard tonight, I am not prepared to vote yes on this with these exclusions.
Approved:
Supervisor Acunto - The resolution is carried. We will take a 5-minute recess and then go back to the regular order of business.
SUPERVISOR'S REPORT AND ANNOUNCEMENTS:
July review of revenue and expenditures:
There will be a Remembrance Day Ceremony on September 11 at 8:00 A.M. at the county. We will be in front of the building. We would like to terminate at 8:47 A.M. with the ringing of bells and sirens.
The Knights of Pythias Ceremonial Sword Display Case is finished. The plaque is being made by Will LaRue.
There needed to be some immediate repairs on the voting machine in West Charlton. It was taken to the factory. It will be back for Primary Day.
Hazardous Waste Collection Day will be September 28 at the Saratoga County Fairgrounds. You must apply by September 13. Applications are available at the Town Hall. Businesses will be excluded.
The Town Board recognized Andrea Smith as being named Dairy Princess and Jenna Smith as Dairy Princess Ambassador. Peter Schrader was inducted into the NYS Builders Association Hall of Fame.
The Town Board members received copies of three different policies: The Americans with Disabilities Act, a Hire/Fire Policy and an Employee Dispute Resolution Procedure. We have a new insurance company. We do not have these policies which need to be adopted. After review by Mr. VanVranken, the Town Board should take action on these at the next Agenda Meeting.
COMMUNICATIONS:
During Privilege of the Floor, Supervisor Acunto read the letter faxed to his home by Dean Durst regarding Local Law #3 of 2002.
We have received a resignation from Bill Ryan as Zoning Administrator.
We received a correspondence from the ECC reviewing the NIMO gas line installation which will be located in town. Supervisor Acunto will be passing this on to NIMO.
We have received notification from the Town of Ballston that Jenkins Road will be closed until sometime in September due to a bridge repair.
Bill Ryan will no longer be our Code Enforcement/Building Inspector. We received a letter from The Inspector saying that effective August 1, Richard Moon will fill this position. He will be available by appointment only.
Primary Day will be September 10 from Noon to 9:00 P.M. It is a full primary.
RESOLUTIONS:
Motion made by Councilman Schroeder, seconded by Councilman Lippiello that Resolution #85, A RESOLUTION ADOPTING AN ESCROW ACCOUNT POLICY TO COVER EXPENDITURES FOR ENGINEERING, LEGAL COUNSEL AND REVIEW OF SPECIAL DISTRICTS, be approved:
Approved:
Motion made by Councilman Schroeder, seconded by Councilman Grattidge that
Approved:
Motion made by Councilman Lippiello, seconded by Councilman Schroeder that Resolution #87, A RESOLUTION TO TRANSFER FUNDS, be approved:
Approved:
Motion made by Councilman Mitchell, seconded by Councilman Schroeder that Resolution #88,
Approved:
ASSESSORS:
We received our equalization rate from NYS. It 90.00 for this year.
ENVIRONMENTAL CONSERVATION COMMISSION:
The Hazardous Waste Collection has been discussed.
HIGHWAY:
Completed paving Valentine Road, Upper Sweetman Road and Western Avenue from the group home to Jolly Road. They need to be sealed yet. They have put in a couple of driveway culverts, have been cutting brush on Western Avenue and working in the park.
HISTORIC DISTRICT COMMISSION:
The selection committee met. They received ten replies from companies interested in taking on the project. They have narrowed it down and are getting close to the final selection. There will be a quarterly meeting of the Capital District Transportation Committee this Thursday. Councilman Mitchell will be attending.
HISTORIAN:
Town Historians are being asked to work on a county-wide survey of historic site markers.
PARKS:
Considering a tree planting for 911.
PLANNING BOARD:
They will be meeting this month.
RECORDS ADVISORY BOARD:
Met with the architect regarding the vault at the new town hall.
WATER DISTRICT:
Because there is a moratorium in effect, we will need to put together a committee to be studying the water district.
ZBA:
September 29 to October 2 is a Planning Federation Conference in Saratoga. Application must be in by August 23. A number of people are interested in going.
ZONING:
For the month of July they collected a total of $1,634.00.
COUNCILMAN REPORTS:
Supervisor Acunto - I am sorry Mr. Simoni is not here. I don't need a TV camera and a large audience. I chose not to respond to an affront made upon me. I was personally offended by his comments to me. First off, I believe that this board offers good, fair, honest government. It is no longer back room, smoke screen politics. Mr. Simoni should be made aware that there is a new day in Charlton and he should life up the shades and take a look at it. To say to me that I had no right to turn the meeting over----- If you all remember I said you could meet and I didn't have to be here and I believe this board agreed that that is what they wanted to do. It was not my decision. I am in this building five days a week, including Wednesdays, when this building is closed and answer phone calls and meet people. If I chose to do something on one day that took me out of town that is my business. Mr. Simoni is very offended that I am not taking his political arm-twisting any longer. Mr. Simoni called me several weeks ago and tried to ask me to tell you people to appear at a meeting that HE wanted to meet, a meeting with both the Planning Board and this Town Board which is improper and illegal and I refused to even discuss the topic with him. That is Number 1. Number 2. He also told me not to schedule any public hearing in the month of September on any water issues because he was going to be out of the country in Korea and did not want any public hearing. I WANT THAT IN THESE MINUTES. I am not going to tolerate political arm-twisting from Mr. Simoni and his political machine of people. This is open government time in Charlton and we had all better work together or we are going to die together.
Councilman Grattidge - My feeling on the meeting tonight was that I thought it was a little inappropriate to stage a show of force. We had a public hearing. We had plenty of opportunity for people to talk. I think the Board lives and dies by our votes. Thanked the County Supervisors for the display of costumes and the presentation at the fair.
Councilman Mitchell - The re-enactment at the fair was great. The newsletter deadline is September 6th.
Councilman Lippiello - It was an exceptional meeting tonight and a good exchange of information. I think what we did was the correct thing.
Councilman Schroeder - That's open government when people come out, whether they agree or disagree with what we are going. They make their voices heard. (Changed tape) Bill Ryan has done a phenomenal job in turning the zoning administrator job around. Leslie has a great handle on the job.
PRIVILEGE OF THE FLOOR:
Maggie Schmidt spoke regarding the anonymous letter that went out to residents. She was please that Mrs. Reville stated that she distributed letters. Maggie said she didn't feel Mrs. Reville was aware of the history of anonymous letters within the town--How hurtful they are and how illegal they are. The people doing it must cease and desist because it is a very bad scar on our community. A person should stand up for what they say and not hide behind anonymity.
Marv Schorr - We saw democracy at it's best tonight. I would like to compliment the Town Board. You didn't come to blows even though you disagreed. We did not have a good turn out at the public hearing on the moratorium issue. Maybe we need to re-examine notification.
Supervisor Acunto - We are hamstrung by the laws. If we do any more than that, I almost wonder if we are going to be criticized by trying to cause a direction.
Marv Schorr - People who were here tonight obviously didn't know what took place last month. They should have known about that.
Bob Killeen Jr. also felt there might have been better notification. It was good to see people come out. Notification is very important.
Paul St. John thanked the board for a good well run meeting.
After everyone had the opportunity to speak who wished, the meeting was adjourned at 11:00 P.M.
Respectfully submitted, |
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